ve used 10mg of vinpoceine, 200 mg of caffeine and 8mg of ephedrine with 1.25mg of selegiline after breakfast yesterday. Before heading out to the gym I took a low dose of clen ( a little over 20mcg ) then 1.5 grams of l-tyrosine and 200mg of dmae about 1 hour before the gym. for sure Im being cautious by adding stims and other noops at lower than usual doses… For sure my trainings just don
t seem as good as they were before due to the synergy, and lack of no shotgun but 1.25mg of selegiline is probably not enough for me. This is based on 1 day however... From what Im reading it`s relatively safe to combine other drugs like ephedrine with selegiline as long as the dose is under 5mg per day.
Come to think about it the "don
t take this with selegiline list" is very similar to what is listed on a bottle of cold medicine. Yet Ive taken those meds with all the othe stuff you
re not supposed to use, and never had any problems. Still, since this is "prescription" I think extra caution is needed. Im gonna throw a geranium cap in the mix toning, but no ephedrine because I`m not training.
Oh yeah, last night at work, I sipped on 1 gram of l-tyrosine, 200mg of dmase and 500mg of aniracetam. Nothing bad to report here.
Here`s some good info I found today:
The dangerous world of combining selegiline with substances in pursuit of synergy:
L-deprenyl, aka selegiline is an irreversible enzyme inhibitor that is selective for monoamine oxidase B at low doses, also inhibiting MAOA at higher doses.
In addition to exerting positive effects on mood, cognition, and motivation, selegiline is neuroprotective. It turns out that MAO, in oxidizing dopamine-like substances, creates various free-radicals, many being peroxide species. These free-radicals, along with others, lead to oxidative stress that can damage cellular mitochondria, culminating in cellular death in sufficiently severe cases.
Reports of negative side-effects from selegiline resemble those of classical stimulants, but tend to be far milder. I’ve only really noticed mild dry-mouth. You might experience restlessness, anorexia, insomnia, increased pulse and blood pressure*, though
- Perhaps paradoxically, low doses of l-deprenyl have been found to induce orthostatic hypotension in geriatric patients. Refer to the monograph for Zelapar, a newly released orally active form of l-deprenyl.
I casually hypothesize that selegiline can cause agitation, restlessness, elevated body temperature and insomnia sans increases in heart rate and/or blood pressure.
Key chemicals to avoid combining with MAOB-selective doses of selegiline (or to combine extremely carefully, at (very) low doses, in pursuit of synergy) (list not exhaustive):
Any classical stimulant, particularly those broken down preferentially by MAOB.
adrenergic stimulants, eg ephedrine
likely some atypical stimulants**
MDMA (or other entactogens)
Psychedelic drugs based off of the phenethylamine backbone (eg, mescaline, 2cb, 2c-t-7, DOB)
propoxyphene (darvocet…don’t take this anyway; it not only sucks, but is also ineffective against pain)
synephrine (although this tends to be rather ineffective too)
phenylalanine (either stereoisomer)
**For example, a couple of users reported uncomfortable synergy with caffeine, even though caffeine doesn’t affect monoamines directly. Another key example, modafinil, is currently poorly understood, but one study suggests that it somehow boosts dopamine in significant levels . Please tread with caution if at all.
This list is not exhaustive! When in doubt, avoid medications and other drugs that list a warning of contraindication with MAOIs. While such warnings usually refer to non-selective MAOIs or those selective for MAOA, you’ll have to cultivate your own understanding of how our bodies metabolize such medications and increasingly present neurotransmitters consequent of the medication’s effects if you’re to determine how safe a combination might be.
drugs to avoid when taking selegiline in doses unselective for MAOB:
Foods containing tyramine (most aged and/or fermented foods, like red wine, most cheeses, etc.)
(if taking an MAO-inhibitor, particularly an irreversible one, please take care to look up a list of foods containing significant amounts of tyramine, which could prove life-threateningly dangerous)
Other medications increasing serotonin or norepinephrine (eg (but not limited to), tricyclic anti-depressants, the heterocyclics, tramadol, and medications chemically homologously related to these.
DXM provides a key example: prominent among bluelighters, this medication effects increased intercellular serotonin, and thus presents the danger of serotonin syndrome when combined with other medications that increase intercellular serotonin. A general reminder: never mix DXM with MDMA, as it could prove life-threatening.
5-htp or l-tryptophan
a more exhaustive (yet not completely so) list of contraindications:
listed contraindications from the Selegiline Rx Monograph:
This drug should not be used with the following medications because very serious (possibly fatal) interactions may occur:
antidepressants (e.g., TCAs such as amitriptyline/protriptyline, nefazodone, SSRIs such as fluoxetine/paroxetine/sertraline, venlafaxine), appetite suppressants (e.g., diethylpropion, sibutramine), drugs for attention deficit disorder (e.g., atomoxetine, methylphenidate), certain antihistamines (azatadine, carbetapentane, chlorpheniramine), bronchodilators (e.g., albuterol, salmeterol), bupropion, buspirone, carbamazepine, cyclobenzaprine, dextromethorphan, certain drugs for glaucoma (e.g., apraclonidine, brimonidine), certain drugs for high blood pressure (e.g., guanethidine, methyldopa), other MAO inhibitors (furazolidone, isocarboxazid, linezolid, moclobemide, phenelzine, procarbazine, tranylcypromine), nasal decongestants (e.g., phenylephrine, pseudoephedrine), certain narcotic medications (e.g., fentanyl, meperidine), street drugs (e.g., MDMA/“ecstasy”, LSD, mescaline), stimulants (e.g., amphetamines, ephedrine, epinephrine, phenylalanine), “triptan” migraine drugs (e.g., sumatriptan, rizatriptan), tramadol, tyrosine, tryptophan.
NEVER COMBINE SELEGILINE WITH A STIMULANT AT DOSES OF SELEGILINE THAT INHIBIT MAO-A (>5mg per day)
How to move toward exploiting synergistic combinations between selegiline and other drugs more safely***:
***I employ the terms â??more safelyâ?? rather than “safely” because dangerous, experimental combinations, such as those below, could never prove â??safeâ?? per se.
First, you’ll need to try the selegiline on its own. If you wish to retain MAO-B selectivity (which you’ll want to if you plan to try combining selegiline with almost any other drug). I suggest 5 mg/day for the first week. selegiline’s oral bioavailability is poor, but it increases when the drug is taken on a full stomach (the fattier its contents, the better). You can also try taking it sublingually. Now, selegiline tastes quite bad and numbs the area it touches…and I don’t know if this helps.
There is now an alternate formulation of selegiline, delivered by a transdermal patch (brand name, Daytrana). The doses tend to be quite a bit higher than oral formulations, placing the viability of synergistic combinations in doubt. However, there is a particular bluelighter who has experimented with such with success, lauding the combination as long as stimulant dosages remain very low. Still, with non-selective MAO inhibition, I consider this combination extremely risky, too much so to be tolerably safe for most anyone.
Because selegiline is irreversible, permanently denaturing the MAO-B molecules in which it comes in contact, you will only have MAO-B activity insofar as your body synthesizes more MAO-B. Thus, in theory, you should require lower doses of selegiline the longer you take it. So you may try 2.5 mg/day after a week or so. The theoretical borderline to maintain selectivity for MAO-B is 10 mg/day, but as serum levels of MAO-B fall, and as less selegiline is needed, a regimen at this level should eventually inhibit MAO-A to some degree. I suggest avoiding taking more than 5 mg/day to retain selectivity for MAO-B, as a rule of thumb to preserve safety.
Now…because the synergy of MAO-B-inhibition and the action of stimulants is multiplicative, depending in part on unique brain chemistry/physiology, we don’t know what this combination will do in your body. What is more, this combination is highly experimentalâ??doctors never prescribe it, and a small number of people have experimented with it. There have been a couple of animal experiments…but just a couple. So you might react idiosyncratically in a dangerous way. Thus, you must exercise the utmost caution. You’ll need to titrate your dosage of the chosen stimulant upward from an almost certainly inactive dose.