T Nation

Seem Decent?


#1

forgive me if i seem a bit noobish...my first and only cycle was 10yrs ago and i was running Dbol and Oma250..came off with hcg and over all was pretty happy with the results..im turning 40 in a few months and ive got the itch again. right now im in good shape and train mostly for strength at 5'8.5 and 215lbs, 18inch arms, 350 bench (420 pr) and about 50in chest..pretty good everywhere but im starting to hold some weight on the sides- not much, but its there..

to the point.. im gonna run 8wks of test, probably Sus, and then go with 6 weeks of Anavar at 50 a day..im hoping to gain about 15-20lbs on the Sus and maybe 7 more on the Anavar and hopefully end up keeping half of all that when its all said and done. Ill be taking creatine, liver support, tons of food and protein, and trib when i end with the Var..is there anything im missing or should do differently? ive been lifting for almost 20yrs now and this is the last time im feeling i can do this- are my expectations reasonable?


#2

Read the SERM/AI sticky.

hCG is not suitable for PCT. Read the Newbie sticky to figure out what you should be doing for PCT.


#3

I think you need a refresher on the current AAS and ancillary knowledge. Read the stickies (top several threads in the steroids forum).

I would go with a single ester and not a blend like sus (testosterone propionate - 30 mg, testosterone phenylpropionate - 60 mg, testosterone isocaproate - 60mg, and testosterone decanoate -100 mg). That will allow you to maintain a steady blood level of test a lot easier and also allow you to time your PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) with more prescision and less down time. I suggest test enanthate at 250mg/ml as it is cheap and effective.

Also, why would you run the Anavar after the test and not concurrently. Why prolong the amount of time your HPTA is suppressed and delay recovery? Short potent cycles are more productive than longer ones and greatly facilitate recovery.

Make sure to source an AI (aromatase inhibitor) like Adex which is cheap and effective. Run it for the full duration of your cycle.

Plan out a PCT with a SERM like Nolva (Tamoxifen citrate) Normally 4 weeks of W1: 40mg/d W2: 40mg/d W3: 20mg/d W4: 20mg/d

As Bonez said, current optimal HCH protocol calls for 250iu EOD during cycle or latter part of cycle. HCG has been determined to be inhibitive to the reestablishment of LH and FSH when used post cycle. This will hamper your recovery.


#4

bone- i wasnt gonna use the hcg…that was just a bit of my past use i threw in there…

some reasons for what i was doing- flame away

  1. like i said, im way out dated and alot of what im going on was what we had done in '98…obviously this needs to change.

  2. as for the blend, i may not have a whole lot of control over this- its what’s avail, but i was under the impression that a blend will have both a fast and slow property to it which could be more desirable.

  3. it was suggested to me, and ive read, that a low dose of test wouldn’t necessarily shut you down- i think we are using 250 per week- and a 50mg run of Var would also not shut you down and would have very little sides.

  4. the running each separately wasn’t my idea…it was suggested to me by a guy with a lot more AS experience than I, so i took it on face value.

thanks for the info so far guys- it looks like i dont know as much as i thought- please keep the info and/or suggestions coming…

T.


#5

[quote]antknee wrote:
3. it was suggested to me, and ive read, that a low dose of test wouldn’t necessarily shut you down- i think we are using 250 per week- and a 50mg run of Var would also not shut you down and would have very little sides.
[/quote]

250mg a week of test will shut you down. With that said, many people use 500 mg a week for their first dosage. That seems to be a good mix between benefits and sides. I guess most figure if they’re gonna shut down their natural production, they might as well make it worth it.


#6

yeh mate i would say it’s pretty pointless doing 250mg a week its enough to shut you down but you wont get very good gains, i would say 500mg a week is a good start.

blends having a “fast and slow property” isn’t beneficial because the longer esters of the blend prolong recovery and the start of PCT (you have to wait until test blood levels have cleared before commencing PCT) yet we now know for best results when using a blend like sus you have to inject according to the shortest ester so EOD, negating the benefits of a long ester allowing you to inject less frequently

so better off with prop or enth
i personally like prop better as far as results and feel but thats just me

also if your gonna add another steroid to the test and your goal is lean mass gain there are better alternatives than anavar.


#7

ok…you guys really have me re-thinking the blend, but again, this may be out of my control as far as what is availible…edit- looks like cyp is avail as well- this would be a better choice?

brentcozi, you mentioned better alternatives than var…would you care to elaborate? one reason i chose var was strength gain- id like to hit a 420+ bench again, the fact that the gains tend to stick around, and im a puss- i dont want to stick myself anymore than thats needed- i didnt care for it in the past so im trying to keep that to a minimum.

and with the dose recommendations from you all- is that taking in the fact age (39) and the fact i dont need to turn into a monster? i mean id love to gain a solid 20 but a permanant 15 would be great as well. most of the local guys im talking to are older highland games/powerlifter types who are my age- they are saying that, while its a low dose, i will get a nice kick in the butt from it, which is what im looking to do- not be the next Coleman. they are also talking about min amount of shut down with the dosage-is all that totally wrong?

leaning towards use of adex as well- then maybe nolva…

thanks again for all this info- it helping out quite a bit!

T


#8

bumping- added new info-


#9

250 doesn’t do much for the majority of people. There are some outliers, but odds are you aren’t one. Further, if your product is at all underdosed, you’ve already eliminated any room for error.

Cyp would be a wiser choice than sus. You might want to frontload it to get higher levels faster.

You’re still waffling on using nolva? I don’t get it. If not nolva, then torem or clomid. Don’t go without a SERM for PCT. DH spelled it all out for you. You talk about wanting your gains to stay; that is one of the primary purposes of a proper PCT.

As for running var, I like it (but again, as DH said, do it alongside the test; don’t extend your cycle just to run it). Peoples’ opinions on orals are always highly varied though. For sure there are things that are stronger and more effective than var, but sometimes it’s a matter of preference.


#10

thanks for the input-

for some reason, even though did it before, anything over the 250 mark has got me scared-yeah, im a pussy i guess…im giving it real thought though…if im gonna do it i may as well DO it. 400? 500? per week? i think my age is what is making me trigger shy.

cyp it is.

i think my waffling is because im not really sure on my Nolva source yet, hence the ’ maybe '…i like the idea of it though and i do want to do a proper PCT- im still researching the threads- had a busy work week…

i like the idea of Var and always wanted to try it- i read someplace else there is a chance the test could ’ drown’ out the var if used together?

all things considered, from the vets, if i upped the T and ran the Var along side and did a proper PCT, ballpark , what is reasonable to expect? i know we are all different but roundabout?


#11

[quote]antknee wrote:
thanks for the input-

for some reason, even though did it before, anything over the 250 mark has got me scared-yeah, im a pussy i guess…im giving it real thought though…if im gonna do it i may as well DO it. 400? 500? per week? i think my age is what is making me trigger shy.

cyp it is.

i think my waffling is because im not really sure on my Nolva source yet, hence the ’ maybe '…i like the idea of it though and i do want to do a proper PCT- im still researching the threads- had a busy work week…

i like the idea of Var and always wanted to try it- i read someplace else there is a chance the test could ’ drown’ out the var if used together?

all things considered, from the vets, if i upped the T and ran the Var along side and did a proper PCT, ballpark , what is reasonable to expect? i know we are all different but roundabout?[/quote]

You can PM for a nolva/SERM source generally, those chemicals are sold “legally” and most will provide sources.

You should run an AI with your test even at a low dose, if your estrogen gets high your prostate is going to swell like a balloon, and you don’t want that especially at your age.

I understand your reluctance to dose higher than 250mg/week, and its a sound personal choice, you have decided your age puts you at a higher risk, and have decided youd rather make fewer gains with slightly less risk.

I would run the test higher, but its not my choice.

Test C is probably not going to kick fast enough, even if frontloaded, you might do better to choose prop or sust.

If you dose the var properly, 250mg/week of test isnt going to drown it.

And besides even if the var “drowns” its important to remember that, that just means you cant really feel it. It doesn’t mean its not working.

To answer your last question, 8 weeks at 500mg/week with say 50mg/day of var with proper training and nutrition… would probably net you 10 pounds of muscle, and a mild reduction in body fat.


#12

500-600mg a week. Run the var for thelast 6 weeks at 50mg/day. Run an AI regardless all the way though.

Sus is fine to use, just be sure to inject it EOD and be aware of the clearing times of all the esters prior to starting pct.


#13

hey guys, thanks again for all the input- it really is helping my construct what i need to run…so, one more-

looks like i have a dbol source as well and was thinking of running a 'old school ’ low dose as my buddy calls it- like 20mg a day. would you run it out in front of the T or start at the same time? do you think this would be a good add on to the T and var? looking at a 10 week run now…

thanks!


#14

[quote]antknee wrote:
hey guys, thanks again for all the input- it really is helping my construct what i need to run…so, one more-

looks like i have a dbol source as well and was thinking of running a 'old school ’ low dose as my buddy calls it- like 20mg a day. would you run it out in front of the T or start at the same time? do you think this would be a good add on to the T and var? looking at a 10 week run now…

thanks![/quote]

The longer the cycle, the more difficult recovery becomes.

A 10 week cycle is equivalent to 12 weeks of suppression (when using cyp or enanthate and closer to 13.5 weeks if using sus).

The choice is yours and while plenty of people run 10 week cycles with no problems, I figured I’d throw that out there since you have long term side effects in mind.


#15

Thanks bonez…im open to ALL info, thanks…

so you’d stick to 8 wks? and ok to run that dbol as well? i had forgotten the T would stay a bit active even when over…


#16

[quote]antknee wrote:
Thanks bonez…im open to ALL info, thanks…

so you’d stick to 8 wks? and ok to run that dbol as well? i had forgotten the T would stay a bit active even when over…[/quote]

Dbol should be fine. Adjust the AI dose as necessary and there should only be benefits from the dbol. I prefer 30mg of dbol but if it is top notch 20mg should yield noticeable results. I like 30 because it is a bit easier to spread out over the day. With 20mg I’d just use it 1.5-2 hours preworkout. Yes, I’d go with 8 weeks if recovery is a major concern.


#17

20mg of Dbol isnt as much ‘old school’ (as old school dosages were screamingly high) as simply ‘low dose’.

20mg is simply considered a dose equivalent to a pre-training ergogenic aid/boost, or a dose that is used once in the morning to bridge between cycles in the hope it will have cleared by evening allowing minimal suppression to occur, while helping to retain muscle (it is theorized).

Gains are massively more noticeable on 30mg and upwards, with over 40mg having more sides to its gains - In my experience.

I would say Dbol ran with Testosterone and Var will feel JUST like a test and dbol cycle… the var will dissappear into the strength and androgenicity and aromatisation and bloat and muscle of the other drugs…

Var is a non-aromatising, low androgenic (IIRC) steroid, and unless your bodyfat is low i doubt you will notice much in the way of appearance changes - other than what the test would provide anyway.
It should in theory add more anabolism to the cycle with no extra estrogen/DHT etc… but it doesnt always work like that - it does for the low androgen deca alongside test or dianabol, buti would expect var to be easily ‘lost’ in a cycle, as is winstrol, eq and i suspect primobolan in moderate/low doses.

As for the dbol question, i would run it at the opposite end of the var… so first 6 weeks dbol, last 6 weeks var, either with a 2 week overlap in the middle or with the var extending 2 weeks past the last test injection to ‘harden’ the muscles - pre PCT.
(you need to leave 2 weeks between a Cyp ester and your beginning of the PCT to allow levels to drop low enough so suppression is no longer a factor, it is good to use a short acting drug during this period to accentuate anabolism as levels of other, longer (acting) drugs decline - like a bridge).

Brook