T Nation

Seeking Assistance

Guys,
I’ve been interested in bodybuilding for years now. About 2 years ago, I got turned onto the OTC pro-hormones like Halodrol 50, Havoc, Epistane, Mass Tabs, etc. Last year, I ran about 6 monthly cycles, taking 30 days in between each cycle. Around the end of November, I noticing my nipples were getting a little sensitive and a little lump forming. My first thought was that it was gyno setting in. The nipples puffed out some, but since I wasn’t on a cycle anymore, I thought it would go away once my natural test went back to normal. I tried to lose some weight as well, but as I lost more and more weight, it became a little more noticeable. Since November, I’m down from 241 lbs to about 218lbs.

2 weeks ago, I decided something had to be done about it. I thought my estrogen levels were whack and went to see my GP about some anti-estrogen. But first, we ran a complete blood work test. Surprisingly to me, my total test came back 172 (range is 241-827). He said what I needed wasn’t an anti-estrogen, but supplemental testosterone. We started last Friday with 400mg Depo-Testosterone . We are going to do this every other week for 3 months, retest blood, and see where we need to go from there.

So, there’s the background. My questions are:

  1. I tried to get him to also prescribe HCG so that I could keep what little of the 172ng/dl I was producing. It seems that without HCG, I will stop producing my own test and will be relying solely on the 400mg every other week. In 3 months, my natural will be shut down. How’s this going to help my gyno symptoms? (if that is what is)

  2. I tried to get him to prescribe me Tamoxifen, which he also declined. I’m going to get that anyway as I think that with the test supplementation, won’t it make the situation worse?

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

First off, it doesn’t surprise me that your test levels are so low. 6 cycles in a year?! Amazing.

Did you do any sort of PCT for those compounds, or did you just try and let your test levels bounce back naturally?

6 month cycles of oral pro-steroids? really? Congrats on that script bro. Is it doctor administered or do have to go to a pharmacy and pick up your gear?

400mg of test every other week does not at all sound optimal to me. It should at least be every week, if not twice a week. I suggest talking to your doctor about this or be prepared to have days with weird moods due to your hormone levels fluctuation so much.

World

I really dont know much of anything about pro-hormones…

and i really dont know what to say about this post…

I do have a question for the OP… what were you thinking… 6 cycles of pro hormones in a year?

bmc

Might as well say something useful i suppose…

I believe i agree with World… maybe talk to the doc/find a diff one… try to explain to him you want your levels in the high-normal range.

bmc

Good luck with finding a doctor that will want to help you get to the high-normal range. I was on the ass end of the range and he said, “you’re not good but your not bad.” Bastard. 374ng/dl is bullshit for someone my age. This is prior to my two cycles of clones.

As was said by a couple guys already. You would be much better off with 100mg/2x wk over 400mg every other week.

While supplementing with any extra test your natural production will be shut down. HCG will not change this.

Adex would be a nice addition as well.

Check out the over 35 lifter forum. There are many threads there dedicated to HRT.

Excellent feedback. I appreciate you guys replying. I’ll follow up to some of the inquiries and questions.

Schmazz: Yea, 6. But, according to the directions (take this product for 30 days and allow 30 days off before taking again) you would get 6 in. Looking back on it now, I would have been better going 30 days on and 60 days off. We would take things like Novadex XT (waste of money) 6-oxo (slightly better) and basically Tribulus to try to bounce back. Apparently you don’t bounce back from pro-hormones like that. I say if they can make a good prohormone, they should be able to make a better legal OTC anti-estrogen as well.

Growing Boy: Thanks. It is kept at the clinic. I go every other Friday and a nurse administers it. Damn is she hot. Good thing my test isn’t higher than it is or I’d be pitching tents walking out of there.

World: You are absolutely right. I charted the script out on Excel using the half-life/ biological value of cypionate and then graphed it. I will peak then valley after every injection. I understand that you would want a steady, level pattern. Once I hit my equilibrium, my highest amount of cypionate in my system will be almost 570mg, my lowest around 217mg. I’m not sure how injections of a certain amount in mg/cc will translate to ng/dl they use to measure your test with.

BMC: It wasn’t like we knew the outcome of each cycle we were going to be on. Most things you run, especially if bought from GNC, have no strength or mass gains. So, we didn’t run 6 cycles of a proven pro-hormone. We might start 1 month with Mass Tabs and see the results. Then wait a month and maybe we would try Pro-Magnon while the other guys tried Epistane. Then sort of compare notes.

My doc knows I want my levels in the high norm. We discussed that. I was like “Man, I don’t want to be taking shots in the ass if this is only going to raise me up to 5 points above the lowest range.” He said he wants me in the top of the range, if not slightly over.

Basically, I really want to get rid of these puffy nipples as well. Again, “Doc, dude. If you don’t do something, I’m going to be in a C cup next time I see you. I can’t go to Mardi Gras out of fear I’ll come back with a shit load of beads guys threw at me.”

Is your doctor an endocrinologist? Have your doctor consult one.

Kroby: No, he’s just a general practitioner. His wife is a pharmacist, I do know that. I think that would be a good idea for him to do that though.

You mentioned they give you your shots in the glutes. I recommend suggesting the ventrogluteal site. It’s the best thing that have ever happened to the world of IM injections.

Also, assuming your nipples are JUST puffy, then get yourself some adex. Don’t bother asking the doc since it will cost you an arm and a leg, instead buy yourself a research chemical.

Now let’s assume they are a bit more than puffy, and you can actually feel the beginnings of hard tissue underneath. Nolvadex and letrozole would be your best options. I’ve never had to mess with letro, but understand it is highly potent for rectifying issues with gyno. Once again, look at research chemicals.

Any news on seeing if you can get those shots 2x week or E3D.

World

World:

I go back this Friday to the office and I’ll see what they say about letting me come in more often to get less dose. As far as the ventro site goes, would you say that area allows better absorption or just for soreness reasons? I had never heard of using until you mentioned it, but after researching it, it seems alot of people use it due to fewer nerve endings and less blood vessels. I’ll see what they say about that as well.

The nipples (right one more so than the left one) are both puffy, and both have harder tissue underneath (again, right one more so than left one). I have just placed an order for 270 Tamoxifen tablets (10mg each) and was going to get ideas about dosage. I also included 90 50mg clomid in that.

So guys, the next question is this, most accept the idea that during PCT 20mg/day Nolva and 100mg/day clomid should be run the 1st week, dropping down to 20mg Nolva and 50mg Clomid the next week. My issue is something different though since I’ll continue taking the HRT injections. Anyone have any ideas what doseage I should run for that? I was thinking of starting at 20mg/day. But since I’m not technically in a PCT and already showed signs of existing gyno, maybe that should be raised to 30 or 40?

Your thoughts?

[quote]Rob320 wrote:
Excellent feedback. I appreciate you guys replying. I’ll follow up to some of the inquiries and questions.

Schmazz: Yea, 6. But, according to the directions (take this product for 30 days and allow 30 days off before taking again) you would get 6 in. Looking back on it now, I would have been better going 30 days on and 60 days off. We would take things like Novadex XT (waste of money) 6-oxo (slightly better) and basically Tribulus to try to bounce back. Apparently you don’t bounce back from pro-hormones like that. I say if they can make a good prohormone, they should be able to make a better legal OTC anti-estrogen as well.

Growing Boy: Thanks. It is kept at the clinic. I go every other Friday and a nurse administers it. Damn is she hot. Good thing my test isn’t higher than it is or I’d be pitching tents walking out of there.

World: You are absolutely right. I charted the script out on Excel using the half-life/ biological value of cypionate and then graphed it. I will peak then valley after every injection. I understand that you would want a steady, level pattern. Once I hit my equilibrium, my highest amount of cypionate in my system will be almost 570mg, my lowest around 217mg. I’m not sure how injections of a certain amount in mg/cc will translate to ng/dl they use to measure your test with.

BMC: It wasn’t like we knew the outcome of each cycle we were going to be on. Most things you run, especially if bought from GNC, have no strength or mass gains. So, we didn’t run 6 cycles of a proven pro-hormone. We might start 1 month with Mass Tabs and see the results. Then wait a month and maybe we would try Pro-Magnon while the other guys tried Epistane. Then sort of compare notes.

My doc knows I want my levels in the high norm. We discussed that. I was like “Man, I don’t want to be taking shots in the ass if this is only going to raise me up to 5 points above the lowest range.” He said he wants me in the top of the range, if not slightly over.

Basically, I really want to get rid of these puffy nipples as well. Again, “Doc, dude. If you don’t do something, I’m going to be in a C cup next time I see you. I can’t go to Mardi Gras out of fear I’ll come back with a shit load of beads guys threw at me.”
[/quote]

Only a guess, but i suspect this was going to happen anyway, with or without the Pro-Hormones. Maybe a year or two later… but still.
I also doubt that it was the pro-hormones giving you the gyno as you originally thought, just the low test. Now, seeing as you didn’t have issue with Gynocomastia when you had normal test levels, due to aromatization etc you shouldn’t have a problem with that dose of test… until the last week or last 3-4 days of a “cycle” as yout test level will be reaching the base line easily by then. And as you have noticed, in your body when your test levels are around 150ng/ml you become estrogen dominant (also be aware of feminine fatty deposits in the hips, thighs and breast area) causing the gyno issue.

In light of this, i would suggest that you either pursuade the doc to increase the frequency of the injections (if you do this after the “probationary” period, you can also tell him you are not feeling “that” great and increasing the dose may be needed too!), or seeing as he will not (most dont IMLE) prescribe a SERM or AI, then you should invest in some nolvadex from one of the research-chemicals websites, you should only need it every-other week or so… and at a low dose of 0.5-1ml a day, so it should be quite cost effective in the long term.

I hope this helps a little.

Joe

[quote]Rob320 wrote:
World:

I go back this Friday to the office and I’ll see what they say about letting me come in more often to get less dose. As far as the ventro site goes, would you say that area allows better absorption or just for soreness reasons? I had never heard of using until you mentioned it, but after researching it, it seems alot of people use it due to fewer nerve endings and less blood vessels. I’ll see what they say about that as well.

The nipples (right one more so than the left one) are both puffy, and both have harder tissue underneath (again, right one more so than left one). I have just placed an order for 270 Tamoxifen tablets (10mg each) and was going to get ideas about dosage. I also included 90 50mg clomid in that.

So guys, the next question is this, most accept the idea that during PCT 20mg/day Nolva and 100mg/day clomid should be run the 1st week, dropping down to 20mg Nolva and 50mg Clomid the next week. My issue is something different though since I’ll continue taking the HRT injections. Anyone have any ideas what doseage I should run for that? I was thinking of starting at 20mg/day. But since I’m not technically in a PCT and already showed signs of existing gyno, maybe that should be raised to 30 or 40?

Your thoughts?[/quote]

If i may answer this too…?

You are not on Post Cycle therapy mate, this is purely to block estrogen from causing gyno in your breast tissue. You are not trying (in what would be a vain effort) to restore endogenous testosterones to “pre-cycle levels” and as such you do not need both clomid and tamoxifen.

Clomid is better at stimulating the gonads as it is used to do this in pre-pubescent lads, but IMO nolvadex is the better estrogen antagonist (in breast tissue anyway).
Clomid is known to produce a very “emotional” perspective on life and i would go with the tamoxifen if it were me, some may disagree… (either are fine, both are not necessary)

I would expect 10mg a day to be sufficient for your needs, and that would increase to 20mg if you continued to notice problems. As i mentioned in my earlier post, the frequency would really help wih this issue i think.

I hope i am not standing on your toes world…

Joe

Joe,
Very interesting posts. I appreciate your input. You may be right in that it was going to happen anyway. I do have one question. After charting out my bi-weekly injections at 400mg, I’ll hit my lowest point right before my next injection Friday at 178ml (remaining test after running the 12 day biological elimination of cypionate). I don’t know how much 400mg of test will raise your total number of ng/dl. I wouldn’t think it would be as easy as simply converting the mg to ng and ml to dl. How would one know how high their body’s total test numbers would be after injecting 400mg without a blood test every time? The reason I ask is this, if the doctor says no to my request of weekly 200mg injections, my excel spreadsheet shows me to be at a dose remaining of 178mg remaining of the original 400 right before my next injection. Then I’ll add 400 on top of that and I’ll have about 578mg floating around in there.
When you mention nolvadex at 10mg/day and then raising to 20mg/day if needed, how long should I try the 10mg before upping to dose? I’ve read that the elimination half-life of Tamoxifen is 5-7 days, so I would think I should do 10 until I reach equilibrium before raising it to 20mg/day. After about 3 weeks,a total of about 90mg of Nolvadex would be in my system (using the 7 day half-life formula). Would you agree that I should wait 3 weeks then before upping to 20/day?

From what I can recall from this thread you want to take the nolva now in order to get rid of the partially formed gyno thats currently there.

If you use 40mg for a couple days and then 20 for a few after that then what is noticeable there now should go away after a short run like that.

To prevent anything further from bothering your you need to incorporate adex into your hrt protocol at likely .25mg EOD or E3D.

Rather than try to plot where your levels will be in excel there is a handy little tool on a lot of different internet sites.

www.bulkmuscle.com/pct/index.php

sorry lilguy, i really do not agree with this guy using arimidex. It is expensive and overkill for his needs. He isn’t gonna be using a gram a week of test here… more like 1-200mg.
The gyno isnt from high estrogen as such - more low test making the estrogen SEEM high, while arimidex would fix this, only while on. It would create a bounce back too… he would have to stay on it permanently, and we dont want that.

Tamoxifen is the best route.

As per the OP’s question, bodybuilders/steroid users tend to dose tamox at once a day, this is partly due A/Most Bodybuilders do not dose according to half life, and mostly B/ the doses uses are supra-supra maximal in comparison to medicinal doses.

So i would say, dont get too caught up in half life etc when it comes to tamox, as it isnt THAT effective, so 10mg, hell 40mg isnt going to be enough per 7 day as the halflife suggests. The dose is still 70-140mg per 7 days so that dose will be split up daily, to give a nice even coverage of anti-estrogenic lovliness.

OK?

So now, you can either do as i think it was lilguy said and use 40mg a day for a week or so, then go down to 20mg… then 10mg if all is fine in that area, or you could build up from the other way, as and when needed.
The only differences are that the first way is the best if you are not sure about what is really happening, you are scared, you want to load up on as much SERM as possible to try and “cure” the problem then maintain later - which does actually work! The second way is the more cautious about taking a new drug and never wanting to take more than is necessary.

Upto you, either is fine, but as the discussion was going towards the point that Test levels will only be dropping the last 5-5 days of the 2 week frequency, then once the problem is under control - you may just have to dose at those times.

I think i would suggest you take 40mg a day for a week, checking the lump, itch, swelling daily to see for improvements, after a week if there are improvements (there should be) then drop to 20mg. After a week you may want to use 10mg during the first 16 days of an injection, and up that to 20mg for the last 5 or 6.

As for the mg - ng level, i really do not know. I wouldn’t even hazard a guess.

I am not a doctor. I am some bloke you dont know who has used tamoxifen and AAS together and avoided and corrected similar problems to your in the past. Take my advice at your own risk…:wink: lol

Joe

Lillguy: Thanks for the advice. You are correct. I originally went to see my doctor about issues of nipple sensitivity and fat deposits increasing in my chest area. Well, that and always feeling worn down at the gym.

Then we ran tests and found my test was low (maybe to do with Pro-H, maybe not). I was just wanting to make sure if it was gyno, it wasn�??t going to get worse with my increased test injections and my doc was against the idea of using anti-e�??s.
That�??s a great chart and would come in handy. It definitely saves time.

Joe:
Thanks for all the tips. I think I have a pretty good idea of what I�??m going to do. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
All: I appreciate everyone who responded to this post with advice. Thanks again and I�??ll keep everyone posted.