Second Cycle, Decisions Decisions

but your thoughts on the 2nd cycle idea? the mast and test?

I like mast! It’s definitely got it’s place for a guy going on stage. It helps burn fat but all AAS’s do, it lower shbg, keeps gains drier and it has this “polish” that shows at the end of hard cutting cycle. It can build on it’s own but your mgs have to be high. Most UGLs price mast as one of the “exotics”. And that is the problem with it.
Everything it does except the polish can be gotten with other compounds at a better return for your dollar.

When I responded earlier I didn’t see that you had dbol in there. Only one oral per cycle until you have five or more cycles. You did have a decent break off of oral before you wanted to start the winny but with your age and even mine our livers just are not young anymore. When we nut punch our livers with a toxic oral steroid we need to give them some serious recovery time before we nut punch them again. Like months of no hard living via oral AAS.

You have got to pick one of the three for your cycle; cut, mass, or lean quality gains. I use to try to build at the beginning then switch over and cut at the end. It sorta works but typically when you try to do two things you don’t get strong results for either. I still do sometimes run a couple of weeks of winny at the end of a lean gain cycle just to help get some of the water out and help finish strong. I honestly don’t think it does a whole lot past the placebo effect and the water. I think I should be killing it because the winny is extra hormones I didn’t have the prior month, so i make myself go harder. Running the end like that is supposed to help solidify gains but if you’re blasting and cruising you don’t have to worry about the no test muscle atrophy period during early PCT.

For you with what I read in your other posts here I think you should go for a lean quality gain. Here’s why and I just got done saying this to someone else. Go look up what a pound of fat burns in a day in calories and look up what a pound of muscle burns in calories. If you have to go look it up it will sear into your brain better. If you have a decently clean diet that you keep consistent and you keep adding pounds of lean mass eventually you will be at a point where just going about your day to day activities will burn more calories than you take in. Lean mass is the key to body recomp. Diets don’t work long term.

If you start your cycle with dbol going for mass your body is going to try and build mass while retaining water. Then to be lean you have to go back and work the fat out of what you just built along with whatever fat you had to start with in order to see definition. Don’t take one step back then two steps forward, just take a proper step forward.

If you try to do a cutting cycle, which would be the situation mast would fit in I don’t think that fits with your job or workout regiment. Plus to get the thing mast is best at you need to be a low body fat at the beginning.

If you do a lean mass cycle I think that fits your goals and lifestyle. The EQ is perfect for that.

This next part I put in another response here in the last few weeks but I will rewrite it. Go look for the other version of this in case I forget a part here. When you start in this world of AAS even if you have an actual pro guiding you, you have no idea if you are buying great, decent or bullshit bottles. Right now at the beginning you need to find a source and figure out if it is decent. If you go buy exotics and they are bullshit quality you wouldn’t even know. Then there is the whole bit of exotics usually have a specific trait people are willing to pay more for. Honestly are you at the point of being able to properly harness those specific special traits that you pay extra for? What about the whole bit where these UGLs might be substituting something else for the exotics? You and anyone who is looking for a new source should always test the common hormones first. I guarantee if they put out shitty testosterone then their primo is going to be who knows what. But even if their testosterone is good that doesn’t mean their primo is good. The least likely compounds to be faked are the less expensive ones. Use your money wisely. Test the less expensive stuff first just to see if the lab is legit. Then work your way through the common less costly hormones so when the day comes where you need the mast or primo to help you to the next level you will be able to tell if it is something new and different from anything else you have tried. Spend your money strategically.

With what I feel you want out of your cycle and knowing a little bit about your day to day I think this would be a perfect fit. Test and EQ with Proviron and thats it. Proviron does two of the things mast does that you could benefit from at this level. Not trying to be dick but even if you went on a crazy fucking diet you still wouldn’t be in a position to properly harness the polish mast can provide so why pay for it and not get it. Proviron lowers SHBG and it helps us keep our gains nice and dry aka lean. They actually use to use Proviron as an anti estrogen before they had AIs. The benefits it provides will be gotten at a much better return for your money vs the same amount of end result via mast. Save your first time with mast for when you can get the most out of it. Also Proviron isn’t harsh and toxic on your liver! I think 25-50mgs per day would work wonders. Proviron can also help keep you from retaining water on cycle or at least it does for some guys.

I promise you test, EQ and Proviron will make the stack that will help you move a significant distance towards your long term end goals. It could even get you the whole way in one cycle.

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What are your thoughts on this approach: two orals of opposing effects, run at lower doses and for slightly longer?

Example would be a cut in which you’d utilize dbol @ 10 or 20mg and winstrol @ 30mg with a simple trt base. My thought is that one could get a decent strength boost, retain some size and positive energy levels, all while in a moderate deficit. Nothing drastic, no wild side effects at those doses, minimal e2 issues, and overall good results. (This assumes one is a trt or bnc guy, otherwise probably not worth it if it’s sinpky a cycle)

I love reading whatever you write, so if you’d be inclined to opine I’d be very interested in hearing what you have to say.

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Key part in there is until you have more cycles.
Really in my opinion the ultimate issue is the mg total and duration. Two full doses of orals at the same time is definitely only for those who are sidelining their health in order to reach a goal, same thing with two full runs of orals in a cycle. Heck the second oral will probably have hindered activity because your liver is still recovering from the first oral.

I wrote this recently but don’t remember if it got on here. Our livers can only process fat or alcohol at any given time, not both at the same time. So when you drink your liver has to metabolize the alcohol then after all is gone it can go back to fat. I dont know how long the Chang over is but I assume it gets longer as we age. I would also assume it gets longer the worse shape our livers are in. I don’t know for a fact but I would assume that enough oral AAS would also cause the liver to not process fat for an extended period like months. It is a commonly talked about issue that if you put enough orals through your liver over a span of time then you end up with this bloated shitty look like a long term drunk kind of look. That look is from their liver not functioning properly. So long term oral AAS is doing something similar to long term heavy drinking. I don’t know where the line is and I bet it is different for every person.

For the 10mg and 20mg or so, that’s a total of a low end dose for either of those so I think it’s safe. The forceful statements I make tend to be aimed at the newer or younger guys. I just have had too many of them try to find wiggle room.

As far as mixing winny and dbol at low doses, I bet almost 75% of us who have bought “anavar” from more than two sources have actually tried this combo. Obviously the UGLs mix them for a reason when they want to fake anavar.

For mixing two opposites, let’s see. Proviron and anything wet equals better quality gains so yes. The reviews say mast can help solidify gains, I think this is a DHT quality period. My early gaining cycles I would end with winny and I did pretty dam good and keeping most of the gains. Winny and dbol, I bet what you build you keep and that’s probably why they use it to fake anavar. Winny and anadrol, I dont fucking know, anadrol is the one I read up on early in my journey and decided there was no need for me to want to try. It probably has to do with the possible headaches. Now winny and anadrol are both DHTs even though anadrol is some how wet, and has progesterone effects. Winny is sometimes listed as a possible anti progesterone effect compound so this mix could be interesting. I know when I get two DHTs together I somehow lose fat that I didn’t realize I had.
Winny and tbol, both known for dry quality gains that is when winny is used in a gaining situation. I think I might have to put this one on the board for thought. If I remember correctly winny does it’s action independently from the Androgenic receptors, I don’t know how, so it makes it good possible stacker for anything that does bind strongly. Dbol and tbol, maybe this would help get more quality gains as in a higher total vs what tbol would do at the same dose of the two mixed. Anavar and…, well to be honest I can not say for sure that I have ever actually had anavar, I think I have but no way to verify. Anavar and dbol again I think this would be like tbol and dbol, a higher total at the finish vs what either would do at the combined mg of either alone.

Anyone interested in exploring different ways of stacking should go read this write up

If you go about it safely and with some intelligence then mix what ever but start each at the very lowest possible dose that general population reports some benefit. I would also say treat the mixture as a new compound. Orals just hit our systems differently, very fast and it nut punch your liver on the way in.

I would adjust the rule to include a caveat of mixing two orals each at their low end dose like 25mgs of each for a total of 50mgs is probably not any worse than taking 50mgs of just one. So if you have multiple cycles and experience with each oral then it’s your liver just keep the duration in check. That shit of taking to high end doses of 50-100 mgs each is just asking for some liver hurt. Even if your young and never drink I bet doing this will cause a protracted recovery period which is either going to interfere with the rest of your cycle or start your PCT off on a bad footing.

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You’re a goddamn treasure for this forum.

fuck yeah he is he guided me through everything thus far…and he isn’t a dickhead…theres some people that come across as cocky, and I wont name nobody (zeek, iron yuppie, ect.) but he makes me listen without even trying…ok let me stop riding his dick here lol… oh zeek, iron yuppie I was completely joking…

but one thing tho….if I was gonna run proviron, could I just swap it with masteron? and if I did would they run mg for mg? for instance proviron @50mg a day equals 350mg per week, so would it be safe to say run 350 to 400mg masteron enanthate a week in its place? or should I just stay with the proviron?

my boy Cody is gonna be getting down with me in about a month, im gonna run the test/eq and have him do the same…skipping a kickstart altogether…that’s for the winter, we don’t want water for the summer…but the test/eq is the winner here for both of us, its just the proviron or the masteron? im thinking the proviron for him…It helped me but you know if we can get the same benefits from the masteron lowering the shbg, and having a drying effect as well as allowing the anabolic activity to enhance gains in place of a kickstart im all for it…thoughts?

cycle now would be test e 600mg per week 1-18
equipoise 600 weekly 1-16

and either 50mg proviron daily or 200mg masteron weekly

with the option of some tbol/anavar at the end to dry us out and bust through any plateau we may ecounter……

also I already have arimidex for both of us…and pct is something im leaving out of this conversation, enough here already to debate lol…thanks fellas

Use the Proviron. For what you pay for masteron it’s really only worth it if you are at a very low body fat and you are either going across stage or modeling. Everything else it does can be gotten at a more effect return for your money through other compounds.

As far as the possible added anabolic activity of masteron, yes it does have some anabolic return but your dose would have to be extremely high like 600-800 at the low end. It just isnt a strong builder. It does one thing that people are willing to pay extra for, that is the polish. Everything else it does can be gotten more efficiently and effectively via another compound. Why pay masteron prices just to get the SHBG and drier gain benefit? The first time with any compound is usually your bodies best response per mg you will ever get. Save your first time with masteron for when you can properly harness it’s benefits.
I feel like I have said this before.

The reason I say Proviron for you is regardless of what you wrote I just think your best long term return with your lifestyle is a lean mass cycle. Actually what you shared lines up with a lean mass cycle very nicely. If your going for lean mass test and EQ will do more than enough but the Proviron will add some extra hardening and cutting. (Along with shbg benefits and libido benefits your significant other should enjoy) Plus with a lean mass cycle the extra muscle will burn more calories throughout the day thus helping with fat loss.

I know I preach only one new compound at a time but Proviron just doesn’t count for that rule. I say only one oral again Proviron doesn’t count. It’s technically a steroid but it isn’t. It may possibly help you gain muscle on it’s own but it’s dose would have to be ridiculously high, like 500mgs per day or something like that. What it does the best is add in to a cycle and help make more out of the cycle. Drier better quality gains, harder more solid staying gains, and a little extra definition at the end for a bonus. What’s not to love? Proviron is non toxic to the liver, only oral AAS compound I know of that can claim that. (Possibly oral primo is non toxic but it has the methelation added to survive the liver pass and I have still not been able to determine if the methelation is the same as the 17aa thing they do to orals) So you can take Proviron for EXTENDED periods of time like years and be ok and plenty of guys have done it. I personally notice the extra libido boost seems to wane as the time progresses so I try to take periods off. If you go back through my previous comments you will see a number of guys just flat out refusing to listen to the test only for your first cycle. I usually try to steer them to Proviron because they can’t really hurt themselves with it. It’s in the DHT family so it has all of those qualities except any real muscle building potential. It just helps make the building better. Also I don’t count the Proviron mgs as part of the total mgs per week. It is in the AAS family but then again it’s not.

For dose of Proviron, what can you afford? I always say the wallet will end up making the decisions for most of us. Even if you can afford 50mgs per day the whole cycle I don’t think you would be harnessing the full potential of the 50mgs the first few weeks of the cycle, but later in the cycle? Remember it really just adds in to what your building and let’s you get more out of the other compounds as far as what you get out of it. Honestly I don’t know if there would even be a huge or noticable difference if you did 25mgs the whole cycle or 50mgs the whole cycle. I don’t even know if there would be an appreciable difference in the amount of free test and EQ as a result of the lower SHBG levels of 25 vs 50mgs. I am actually at the point in my journey where I am trying to figure out things like this however my pharmacological terminology is not up to the level where my searches return the results I want. What I do is term it the best I can then read through trying to learn the proper terms so I can then search those. Basically I am trying to get past the bro science level of stuff but I don’t have that kind of formal education background to facilitate but my gf is in nursing school so it helps some.
So dosing is up to you. Either way you shouldn’t be able to accidentally hurt yourself or hinder anything at either dose.

I just re read your response. Actually the anavar would be a nice counter balance at the end possibly as it is a DHT but don’t. Chances are it’s just winny and dbol. The tbol is a test based compound but dry so no estrogen. That would be three test based compounds, nothing wrong with it I am just counting the total.

If you just have to flat out have an add in at the end of this cycle get winny. Anavar is often faked. Winny is a DHT so it counter balances your test based base of test and EQ. Really winny is like the best and the most efficient add in to just about anything. It’s action is independent of the androgen receptors so it will do what it does with out competing with the other compounds. Go read that write up I linked in the earlier comment.

All that said you don’t need to add anything in but I understand the whole if you think you might then you will.