T Nation

Second Cycle Advice Needed


#1

Hey guys,

So I am coming off my first cycle, and well I stuffed it up quite badly.
I didn't plan or research correctly and it was more a case of putting out fires than steady progress.

Thankfully I found this site and got good advice on what to do next and how to fix my stuff up. Just finishing my Nolva now and feeling the side effects of my hormones trying to level out - acne especially is not a great side effect.

Anyways I thought I would start planning my next cycle.

Got my advice and cycle from:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/steroid_planning

ANYONE new here I recommend having a read of that sticky. Explains everything you could ever want to know.

Thinking of keeping my cycle basic - 10 weeks Enth.
Cycle Plan
W 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
W 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week)

And PCT basic too:
PCT Option 1 (SERM PCT)
W 13 Nolva 20mg 2x/d or Clomid 50mg 2x/d
W 14-16 Nolva 20mg/d or Clomid 25mg/d

The only other advice I would like is in order to maximize my gains, would you recommend any of the secondary auxiliaries? Considering my first cycle really didn't go to great, managed to keep about 3kgs of muscle mass from it, would it be worthwhile running the second with Dbol or Deca, or would I be better off keeping it simple with the Enth?

Optional secondary additions
W 1-4 Dbol 10mg 3x/d if you want an oral kickstart or just a little something extra thrown in mid cycle when your test is kicking in (seems most lately are going with the latter)
W 1-8 Deca 300mg/w if you want some additional bulking help

Background:

I am currently sitting at 88kgs, 14%BF, 1.83M, and am 24.
I train regularly 3-4 times a week, on a strength focused lifting program with a lot of emphasis on the big 5 lifts - bench, rows, deadlifts, squats and o/h press.
My diet is very clean and I have a nutritional plan I have been following regularly.

Only negative was I was sick for 3 weeks for chronic bronchitis so still recovering from that and lost about 5 kgs during that period.

I loved the effects of PROP but hated the PIP - especially as have 3 squat days in my program. The cyp took a lot longer to feel the effects but at least they were painless. My 2 biggest things I am missing from the cycle - My mood was incredibly elevated. 2 - My recovery time was incredible. I have had rotator cuff injuries and issues in the past so usually can NOT work out the day after shoulders but on cycle I would recover at a rapid rate and didn't feel my rotators flair up once in the 10-12 week period.

I think I have learnt a LOT from my previous cycle. That is why I want to start planning and plan properly from now for my next cycle.

PS what would be the recommended waiting period between cycles? Some stickies say the time you were on gear you should be off, others say 4-5 weeks after your last test injection?


#2

I would just add dbol. Deca for 8 weeks is short unless using npp so thats an option. Just know the risks And precautions to take.

Time off is usually same as time on but as long as your bloodwork is stable and where you want it to be then in my opinion youre good to go.


#3

Hey man,

Thanks for your reply I will be taking Adex with it, and only for 4 weeks.

I don’t know much about it just usually its referred to as the breakfast of champions.

  1. DBol is a test based oral (17 alpha alkalated) derivative that adds a considerable amount of water retention, size, and strength but also blood pressure issues. It converts to estrogen so gyno issues are common when not using a SERM or AI…especially when using high doses or being stacked with Test and other armoatizing compounds.

It’s actions are mostly non-AR mediated (anabolic) and has a strong effect on nitrogen retention and protein synthesis. Dbol is of course hepatoxic because of the 17aa so it’s use is generally restricted to about 6 weeks at a dose of 10-60mg/d (spread through the day) making it an ideal compound for a kickstart or short cycle which will both be discuss later.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/dbol_do_you_like_it?id=428423&pageNo=1

Ive come to terms with the bacne side effect of dbol. Just apprehensive on its effects on the liver? But at 10mg 3xd with an AI would my liver be somewhat protected?

Final Q - is it better to front load the cycle with dbol or throw it in at the end?


#4

Using an ai will not help protect your liver. I wouldnt worry about your liver unless you have some kind of issues with it prior to stattibg. You can take otc counter supps for liver. I prefer NAC.

You can throw it in at the beginning before the test reaches peak levels. Or throw it in towards the end if your gains have stalled. Some peopke do both. Its personal preferance really.


#5

Okay so after speaking to my source, I can get my hands on:

300mg Test E
50 OC Labs Dbol
100 Blue hearts Dbol
And Arimidex

But he is recommended to not take the arimidex on the cycle I wanted to run. Any reason why I should / should not besides saving moeny?

Cycle Plan was:
W 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
W 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD
W 1-4 Dbol 10mg 3x/d

PCT -
I have Nolva on hand but hating its side effects - bacne and acne has gotten considerably worse since starting it.
I also have Clomid on hand so thinking of running Clomid instead of Nolva?

To sum up:

  1. Will 300mg E3D or twice a week work as opposed to 250mg E3D? Or is that too much?

  2. I think the Test E is a 10ml vial. Going on twice a week for 12 weeks I would need 24 mls. Is this correct? Otherwise every 3 days comes to 28ml, which would be 3 vials.
    As he is also offering me testoviron amps in order to extend the course for the full 12 weeks, otherwise I can run it for 10?

  3. I have 2-3 ml of Test Cyp left from my last cycle, could I throw it in there too? I know strictly I shouldn’t but got to ask…

  4. Blue hearts over OC labs? Mainly due to the blue hearts coming in 10mg pills.

  5. I need the Amex but any reason why someone would say otherwise?

  6. Clomid over Nolva for PCT? Do I need to run HCG too?

All your help is much appreciated!
Will probably start the cycle next week or the week after but I am trying to source the goods from now so I dont mess this cycle up like my last one from poor planning and running out of product.


#6

If you are honestly asking why you would need to take arimidex and this is your second cycle then I swear to god I will reach my hand through your computer screen and rip your fucking face into ribbons. I’m not kidding, I will literally tear your face into little ribbons which I will then use to gift wrap parcels containing your organs and ship them to your immediate family.

You’ve been on this forum for 4 months and still don’t know why you would use an aromatase inhibitor on cycle? Really?

If we were having this conversation in person I would genuinely punch you unconscious. And I wouldn’t stop. People would have to grab me and forcibly pull me off your unconscious body to stop me from beating your face until it caved in.


#7

I’m not saying I don’t know why I should, I’ve read enough here and elsewhere to know exactly why and what it does.

I was asking why would he, a pharmacist, who I’d assume to have a bit of knowledge on drug interactions, why would he say it’s not needed that’s all.

Of course I’m still getting it I’m just curious as to if there is something behind it.

I worry more about the pct and the protective measures than the actual steroids. I’m not going to go cheap on that stuff as I know it’s what keeps your body safe from long term damage.

PS I spoke with him and this is what he sent me:

"http://www.steroid.com/Novice-Steroid-Cycles-I.php

Check the last paragraph, you only need an AI if your nipples start to get sore. You have Nolva on hand so that should be fine, but if you are feeling those side effects then let me know and Ill organize the Arimidex."

But regardless I will get the Arimidex anyways and run it during my cycle.


#8

oh ok, silly me, I assumed that when you said “any reason why I should/should not” run arimidex you were asking if there was a reason why you should/should not run arimidex. Don’t know how I came to that conclusion.

Your friend is an idiot, and I doubt he’s really much of a friend if he’s giving you advice like that. If you already “know exactly why and what it does” then you’ll obviously know there’s more to elevated E than just gyno symptoms, but I’m sure you already knew that.

Your cycle is fine. Run your AI from the start. Clomid is fine for PCT, it’s what I use.

hCG is up to you; you can run it at 750iu (split into 3 doses) all the way through stopping 4 days or so before PCT, or you can just blast it at the end. Your choice.


#9

Thank you.

Yeah I think he was trying to push Proviron as my “AI” during cycle as it would make me “harder” but from what I’ve read on it, it has some minor Aromatase inhibitor (AI) qualities… but not like taking an actual AI. Money is a bit tight so I would rather spend it for something that is critical like an AI than something that makes me “harder”

Definitely want to do this cycle properly from the start, going to block out most of the advice I get from “bro science” and “gym bros” and stick to trusted sources like this forum.


#10

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Thank you.

Yeah I think he was trying to push Proviron as my “AI” during cycle as it would make me “harder” but from what I’ve read on it, it has some minor Aromatase inhibitor (AI) qualities… but not like taking an actual AI. Money is a bit tight so I would rather spend it for something that is critical like an AI than something that makes me “harder”

Definitely want to do this cycle properly from the start, going to block out most of the advice I get from “bro science” and “gym bros” and stick to trusted sources like this forum. [/quote]

if money’s an issue, the most cost effective AI is letro. Buy a pack of the pills and use a pill cutter to cut them into quarters. One of those pills e3d would probably be enough for your cycle.

Only thing is it’s easy to overshoot letro and take your E too low, so that’d be a potential risk.


#11

So I ran a pretty messed up cycle
Test Prop 4 weeks 250mg
Test Cypriotante 200mg for 8 weeks.

I then hcg 500mg for 2 weeks and tamox for 40/30/20/10 which ended last week.

By the end of the cyp my nipples were really itchy and sensitive. The tamox seemed to help at higher dosage but on the third week when I dropped to 20 I noticed a bit of gyno on my nipples and my bacne has gone crazy. Spots on my face, chest and mostly back.

Been nearly two weeks after pct ended and hasn’t really subsiding.

Any advice? Rekon I go back on the tamox? My new supplier rekons the brand I got was shit and they sell placebo tabs. Not sure as the itching did go away…


#12

get bloodwork. Sounds like high E.


#13

Thank you will do on Monday.

Sorry posted that here couldn’t find my original thread until some smart searching.


#14

[quote]Fluffybeginner wrote:
Thank you.

Yeah I think he was trying to push Proviron as my “AI” during cycle as it would make me “harder” but from what I’ve read on it, it has some minor Aromatase inhibitor (AI) qualities… but not like taking an actual AI. Money is a bit tight so I would rather spend it for something that is critical like an AI than something that makes me “harder”

Definitely want to do this cycle properly from the start, going to block out most of the advice I get from “bro science” and “gym bros” and stick to trusted sources like this forum. [/quote]

proviron used to be the go-to for on cycle control, before AI’s were available. it’s pretty weak, though, and in most places, more expensive than AI’s are, so there’s not much reason to take it now.


#15

[quote]Yogi wrote:
get bloodwork. Sounds like high E.[/quote]

i concur.

if estrogen wasn’t controlled on the cycle, then i would expect it to be high…


#16

Thanks for all the replies.

Will get bloodwork done and check my levels, and post the results here.

In the mean time will try get help from a trainer to sort out my diet and training plan before looking to this next cycle.