T Nation

Scrapping Heavyweight


#1

Hey gals and guys, I wanted to know your opnion on the next:

Our beloved MMA analyst Jack slack has said this:

Fights like Duffee vs Mir make me want the LHW limit moved to 215, the division renamed 'Heavyweight' and everyone above it cut.

? Jack Slack ( @JackSlackMMA ) 17 juli 2015


(Longer then expected...)
He dropped the thought the upper limit LHW should be upped to 215, renaming it heavyweight, and cutting all fighters above. And I feel this isn't a stupid thing to say.

Maybe a bit crude, but here me out:
1) The heavyweight class is pretty f*cked up. All weight classes cover 10-20 lbs, so there aren't horrible mismatches (in weight), but HW stretches over frickin 60 lbs! This really encourages mismatches (inb4 "but fedor!", he is a special snowflake)

2) There aren't too many heavyweights who can't make 215. Think about it: most Hw that can last for over a round are 260 or less. Sure, there are guys who walk at 260 7% bf and they prolly can't cut too much,but most guys at HW can shed 15 lbs fat and 15 without killing themselfs.

2a) I sense the Lesnar/Carwin/Overeem card sliding out of someones sleeve. But Lesnar lost a great deal of muscle mass as far as I know, so he can last longer. Carwin died of hypoxia after a round. Overeem is also a gasser, but he always was, so forget him. I know this is a bodybuilder forum, but trying to be R-Cole should not be priority 1 for someone who needs to be able to last for 25 minutes...for his salary.

3) Maybe if these guys aren't packing almost 20 stone at fight night, they would learn swinging for the fences as a pavlovian reaction when they hear a bell isn't how you become the GOAT. Would make up for fights that are enjoyable for fight fans, not the average bar-brawl voyeur.

4) As is known, muscle demands oxygen, and fat is dead weight, taxing muscles. If these guys get leaner (and maybe a little less built), their stamina would increase. Stamina increases, less need to swing, more energy to keep going. Less swinging, more keeping going-->higher technical standard.

5) Less fat guys at weigh-ins.

I'm a big guy myself (6'8, 250 lbs); I am a believer in this possible change. You can get some strength in 245/250 lbs, and be able to cut down from there with dedicated work. I would like a weight class I can drop in with some hard work where I can fight honestly. LHW is too far down for me now, and HW is unlimited. I think I can't honestly fight 300 lbs behemoths. They could crush me, or they could gas disproportionally.


#2

[quote]Panopticum wrote:
Hey gals and guys, I wanted to know your opnion on the next:

Our beloved MMA analyst Jack slack has said this:

Fights like Duffee vs Mir make me want the LHW limit moved to 215, the division renamed ‘Heavyweight’ and everyone above it cut.

? Jack Slack (@JackSlackMMA) 17 juli 2015

(Longer then expected…)
He dropped the thought the upper limit LHW should be upped to 215, renaming it heavyweight, and cutting all fighters above. And I feel this isn’t a stupid thing to say.

Maybe a bit crude, but here me out:

  1. The heavyweight class is pretty f*cked up. All weight classes cover 10-20 lbs, so there aren’t horrible mismatches (in weight), but HW stretches over frickin 60 lbs! This really encourages mismatches (inb4 “but fedor!”, he is a special snowflake)

  2. There aren’t too many heavyweights who can’t make 215. Think about it: most Hw that can last for over a round are 260 or less. Sure, there are guys who walk at 260 7% bf and they prolly can’t cut too much,but most guys at HW can shed 15 lbs fat and 15 without killing themselfs.

2a) I sense the Lesnar/Carwin/Overeem card sliding out of someones sleeve. But Lesnar lost a great deal of muscle mass as far as I know, so he can last longer. Carwin died of hypoxia after a round. Overeem is also a gasser, but he always was, so forget him. I know this is a bodybuilder forum, but trying to be R-Cole should not be priority 1 for someone who needs to be able to last for 25 minutes…for his salary.

  1. Maybe if these guys aren’t packing almost 20 stone at fight night, they would learn swinging for the fences as a pavlovian reaction when they hear a bell isn’t how you become the GOAT. Would make up for fights that are enjoyable for fight fans, not the average bar-brawl voyeur.

  2. As is known, muscle demands oxygen, and fat is dead weight, taxing muscles. If these guys get leaner (and maybe a little less built), their stamina would increase. Stamina increases, less need to swing, more energy to keep going. Less swinging, more keeping going–>higher technical standard.

  3. Less fat guys at weigh-ins.

I’m a big guy myself (6’8, 250 lbs); I am a believer in this possible change. You can get some strength in 245/250 lbs, and be able to cut down from there with dedicated work. I would like a weight class I can drop in with some hard work where I can fight honestly. LHW is too far down for me now, and HW is unlimited. I think I can’t honestly fight 300 lbs behemoths. They could crush me, or they could gas disproportionally.
[/quote]

  • Jack Slack wants everyone above 215 to lose their jobs? So, you walk around at 245-250 and you cut to 215 without IV now? Nice for Jack to say, its not his job.

  • “Heavyweight stretches over 60 pounds”, so? you walk around at 220 -230, you should not be fighting heavyweight to begin with.

  • stating its easy to shed “15 pounds of fat and 15 pounds of muscle without killing themselves” is a little judgemental dont you think? You ever done that?

  • yes, this is a “bodybuilding forum” but this also the combat forum, and, I know of no serious fighter, amateur or professional, who devotes valuable training time to look good in a speedo. so , they are giving up their salary to look like RC? RC wouldnt last 1 minute in a real fight or 30 seconds in real combat.

  • you dont like watching heavyweights swing for the fences?, I assume you are talking about Mir/Duffee? Sometimes, regardless of your game plan, shit dont go your way, you react. You go “flight ot fight” Mir decided to fight. He even said afterward it was not his gameplan. Its a fight for money, not fashion show for the fans.

  • So the heavyweights are not technical? isnt that a product of training , skill, and coaching?

  • “less fat guys at weigh in” its not a bodybuilding parade, its a fight, who cares what they weigh? Did they follow the rules set forth by the organization? Are they professional?

  • You are 250 yourself, the cut off in the UFC, I believe is 265. so, you are worried someone will cut to 265 on weigh in and then weigh 300 on fight night?

  • I dont really know what you are trying to acheive with this post, total elimination of the heavyweight division?, denying someone of their income, or the creation of a super heavyweight division?


#3
  • jack and I aren’t doing this as a job. But this is far from uncommon practice in the other weightclasses. Most guys cut alot, so why HW’s don’t.

  • If I weigh 250, I can barely reach the current LHW weight. So staying in HW is my best bet. Guys who cut down to 265 can be 280 on fight night. This alows for miss matches, big time.

  • I stick with the 15 pounds of fat for most guys. I recall I said water was the other 15 lbs. That can be gruelling, I have never done it, so my verdict will not be too hard here. It’s just not uncommon to do in other classes, for much smallet guys.

  • I feel guys like overeem are training for alot of mass. This is a combat forum, yet on a BB site, just inb4, no hate.

  • Mir-Duffee was just an example. Think about it: most HW fights don’t last over 1 round, a baffling piece of all weights at HW come by KO. That are just statistic facts that can have (partially) another cause: they are much stronger and have more weight in their blows.
    Yet how many times do you see a HW having a decent gameplan, setting up shots, threatening with feints, looking for weak points in their opponents game? They surely exist, but are rare. Miocic is getting good, Hunt is worth his money, Cain is good, Werdum is savvy, and I’veaeen some good stuff from Barnett and Overeem. In other weights classes, games are rounded in at least the whole top 15, and further down in many instances. In HW the only guys that are rounded are in the game for 10 years. And they ussualy aren’t that rounded either.

-I believe HW’s are far less technical. But how can that be a mere product of training, skill and coaching?
Are they training differently from all other top-notch fighters? I doubt it.
-Is skill less evident in heavier fighters? I think so, but how? What’s the cause. Bigger bodies, less brains isn’t something I believe.
-I guess they are coached by the same high level coaches. Why wouldn’t they?

It can be, I just don’t see how this can be. I dropped some possible causes in the OP. If you can explain, please tell! As a heavy guy I don’t want to fall in the pitfall many heavier guys fell in.

  • Less fat guys was a joke. wink

  • 300 lbs is a exaggeration. 280 more like it.

  • Jack claims an elimination of the all fighters above 215. I believe this is too radical. I would be content with adding a super HW class for 220 and up. So HW will be 205-220.


#4

Scholastic and International Wrestling have 285 as their limit for HW wrestlers, so I have actually always been puzzled at the 265 lb cutoff for the UFC. I would be ok raising the HW limit to 285, and implementing a CruiserWeight division from 215 to 245 and making the HW Division 255-285 (so both were 30 lb ranges).

But, the truth is that it’s not like the HW division is so full of talented fighters that there would be enough to split it into 2 divisions and still have enough good match-ups to keep things interesting.

Now, if the UFC started paying it’s athletes salaries comparable to the NFL, then perhaps there would be a big enough influx of HW athletes to do so. But I’m not holding my breath for that to happen.


#5

Not to be a nit-picky douche, but why do you keep 10 lbs gaps between weightclasses Sento? I always thought one weight class ended where the new class started. So LHW should be up to 205, Cruiserweight starting at 205 until 235, HW will be 265, maybe SHW uptil 295 or something.

What you just said there about the NFL makes me think: aren’t alot of HW Football players that didn’t become professional football players? Great athletes aren’t going to join the UFC if the agression and athleticism they have allow for higher pay checks in the NFL.
Injured guys, or guys that lack somewhere to become pro in football, come to MMA, and aren’t really martial artist, just great athletes with agression. Just a theory…

Also, a great deal of great martial artist took up combat sports when they where bullied as kids. Maybe big guys didn’t need to be able to fight bullies of like that? (I was bullied and I was built like a heavy adult at 8).

Another I noticed is I start getting jitters if a guy that’s approaching my height and weight are sparring with me. I’m not used to it, so guys that are 20 lbs lighter seem like bigger then me.
But smaller guys are half of the time fighting guys just as big or bigger: might build some toughness and confidence!


#6

Oops, yeah my mistake, you are right about my proposed weight classes (though technically CruiserWeight would be 206/7-235 and HW would be 236/7-265 since there is usually a 1 lb to 2 lb leeway on making the top weight for a division).

The thing about the unsuccessful NFL players is true, there are plenty of College Football D linemen who might be very good athletes, or even great athletes, but just not good enough to make the NFL. If they were to try to get into MMA at that point though, then unless they already had some sort of Combat sports skills (like Lesnar or Steven Neil) they are probably not going to be terribly skilled fighters and we are more likely to see very athletic brawls rather than truly skilled fights. The UFC also does not pay anyone but maybe it’s top flight fighters salaries that couldn’t be reached in much less physically damaging corporate America jobs, so unless somebody just absolutely loved to fight or knew there was no chance of a decent white collar job for them, then again the incentive isn’t there; many can probably go play in the CFL, Arena Football League or other similar smaller league even if they don’t make the NFL and get paid more than your average (or maybe even top level) MMA fighter.

However, if the UFC was to start paying it’s fighters NFL salaries today, it would be sure to attract at least some athletically gifted future HW’s who may start training as young children (like they now do with football) and develop into your athletic freak truly skilled MMA HW fighters in years to come. In other words, we likely wouldn’t see the results for a generation or two of HW’s, but it would eventually happen IMO.

That’s a pipe dream though as long as current management stays in power.


#7

No problem man, I just wondered.
Thanks for the input nontheless!

I must say I do believe Lesnar was a brawler with a brutish double leg, and not much more.
I honestly feel UFC fighters should get paid more, more then white collar workers. I understand why professional fighting is a last resort for most, or unbelievable passionate about fighting.
Well, Carwin, Weidman and Bendo studied as an example. But I can’t say what that means in the USA to be honest.
I heard college/university can mean vastly different things in different states: in some states it can mean you are at a level that isn’t even taught were I live (so high), in some states the highest level isn’t even above the level of our average secondary education. So I can’t see how much chances of a white collar job that opens. But I feel alot.