T Nation

Scottish Independence

Politics and World Issues
#1

I am intrigued by what the vote result will be in a few days’ time in Scotland regarding whether to separate from the UK or whether to maintain the union. At first I thought it was unthinkable for Scotland to separate but it seems now as if the race is too close to call.

Here in Canada, most of the news coverage has portrayed the No campaign as being purveyors of doom and gloom for an independent Scotland while portraying the Yes side as recklessly glossing over important economic questions in their haste to convince Scots to separate. I’m interested especially if some of our resident Scots (looking at you Furo and Rattlehead) could chime in with their take on the issues at hand and with their prediction as to what the result of the vote will be.

It would also be interesting to see the opinions of English, Welsh and Northern Irish T-Nation members as to what they think the outcome of Scottish separation would be for their respective parts of the union. I know many people hold very deep feelings regarding such questions so I hope this thread doesn’t result in inflammatory comments or arguments. I’d really just like to see a great discussion of this important world event which doesn’t seem to be getting a lot of talk on here.

#2

It’s a really interesting one! The Canadian news seems to be portraying both points of view the same way that the British news is. I’ve already voted and while I’m not willing to say which way I went, I will say that I wouldn’t be very disappointed with either outcome. Most of the people I know are voting no because they are happy with the way things are, but I also know a significant number of people who are pro-independence. I think the vote will be close, but my gut tells me that the union will win.

#3

If Scotland declares its independence, will the rest of the U.K. attack it or refuse to recognize it?

#4

[quote]furo wrote:
It’s a really interesting one! The Canadian news seems to be portraying both points of view the same way that the British news is. I’ve already voted and while I’m not willing to say which way I went, I will say that I wouldn’t be very disappointed with either outcome. Most of the people I know are voting no because they are happy with the way things are, but I also know a significant number of people who are pro-independence. I think the vote will be close, but my gut tells me that the union will win. [/quote]

Obviously, I don’t have boots on the ground but, my gut instinct would match yours that the no vote will prevail. In 1995 here in Canada, we had our own separation referendum in Quebec where the people of Quebec voted as to whether they wanted to separate from Canada and become their own country.

In the last days leading up to the vote, it seemed that the vote was going to go the way of the separatists but, at the last minute, the federalist sentiments carried the day and the no vote won. I think it’s a case of the “devil you know” vs the one you don’t.

#5

[quote]NickViar wrote:
If Scotland declares its independence, will the rest of the U.K. attack it or refuse to recognize it?[/quote]

Lol wuh?

#6

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
I’m voting no, as is most my family and about half my friends.

We’ve done increasingly well with devolved power since 1998 and would rather continue going down that route steadily than haphazardly jump into independence with questionable North Sea oil supplies and a lazy populous. [/quote]

I’m betting the no vote will prevail. It is the wrong time to really ask people to put faith in going independent since we are just coming out of a recession. It’s a bit of an odd situation though I feel. Although some of the yes voters have been rather cuntish and saying crap like if you don’t vote yes you are a turncoat, I actually am not bothered by their decision to vote yes. I feel it’s a split between types of people: those who are more optimistic/filled with faith and those who are pragmatic/content - it just means no one is really wrong in their decision, its just how they are.

#7

I’m in Scotland. I think the ‘no’ vote will win. My main reason for saying this is that I’ve observed that those in the ‘Yes’ camp will openly tell you this but ‘No’ voters are far more inclined to not want to talk about it much. My guess is most of those claiming to be undecided in the polls are ‘No’ voters just not wanting to say.

I think a huge part of this comes down to a kind of emotional thing - and I don’t mean ‘Braveheart’ romanticism. Lots of people love the idea of being independent. They consider themselves Scottish more than British. They relish the opportunity to MAKE things work - even if the odds are stacked against them. Scotland is far more left wing than the UK as a whole but because it’s population is so low the Scottish vote never seems to make a dent. It’s probably worth it to them even if they were worse off for years.

Those that consider themselves British more than Scottish are less likely to want it because the risks are too great and the potential rewards (for them) are low to non-existent. And of course they like being British more than they like being Scottish. Those with more right wing views are likely to be against it simply because there would be a big shift to the left in political rule in an independent Scotland.

#8

CMDad - yeah that’s exactlly what I think will happen here. And I agree with Susani that I think a lot of the people who aren’t vocal will end up voting no. It’s all very interesting anyway, not long to go now!

Susani - sorry this is off-topic, I just quickly wanted to ask where you got the frame that’s in your avi? I could definitely do with one of them! (Not sure if the mods will let yoou post links though).

#9

This was my post from the other thread on the topic:[quote]
You know, I have been thinking about this pretty hard for a completely non-involved person. My experience with Scotland involved getting very lost on a holiday one summer and ending up in Scotland with 4 little girls that needed to go potty badly. Friendly enough people, indeed.

Here are my thoughts as an outsider, also from relatively little country, but who really wanted to be independent from the English:

  1. Being a little country kind of sucks. Being tied closely to a big country is useful for lots of things. Yes, England is problematic, but Scotland will be too small to go it alone, and will have to look to Europe. Remember the old Dylan song “you have to serve somebody”? Well, you’ll be serving Germany instead of England. At least with England you have a sort-of shared language and customs and peoples. Certainly history. And the English, for all their faults, are a very decent peoples. So that would be my worry no 1.

  2. Worry No. 2 is economic. Oil is great when it is high and really bad when it is low. And it does go low. The economic swings are going to be much, much, greater, which makes for a hard time. So, while I get not wanting to support England now, they are around (with really good defense spending) when times are bad.

  3. It’s going to be complicated as heck. I mean, is an Englishman-by-descent who spent his entire life in Scotland Scottish? How about the Londoner with a Scottish mom and an English dad? Etc.

In all, I think it is a bad move, but again, I am not Scottish or English and about as far from both as possible. [/quote]

#10

The Scotch are a whinging bunch of worthless socialists who will be in for a rude awakening when they can no longer skive off of the English. As painful as the divorce would be, the English would be far better off to be shod of them.

It would be the end of the Labour party. They need their secure parliamentary seats to get back into power. Without Scotland they are in a world of hurt.

David Cameron would be done for if he presided over the break up of the Union. I would expect a parliamentary vote of no confidence if the Scotch vote yes. For the Americans what that means is that parliament would be dissolved and there would have to be a general election within fourteen days.

In the general election I would expect UKIP to make huge gains and possibly even see Nigel Farage become the next PM. This could end up with the English leaving the EU and the Scotch would really be sitting in the shyte. If UKIP somes to power if I would hope that Farage would immediately declare the vote null and void and send in the army. The legal basis for this would be the unfair EU voting rules that allow Germans citizens living in Scotland to vote but disallows Scots living in England from voting.

I would also add that if UKIP comes to power but fails to deliver the BNP will waiting in the wings…

#11

[quote]Sifu wrote:
The Scotch are a whinging bunch of worthless socialists who will be in for a rude awakening when they can no longer skive off of the English. As painful as the divorce would be, the English would be far better off to be shod of them.

It would be the end of the Labour party. They need their secure parliamentary seats to get back into power. Without Scotland they are in a world of hurt.

David Cameron would be done for if he presided over the break up of the Union. I would expect a parliamentary vote of no confidence if the Scotch vote yes. For the Americans what that means is that parliament would be dissolved and there would have to be a general election within fourteen days.

In the general election I would expect UKIP to make huge gains and possibly even see Nigel Farage become the next PM. This could end up with the English leaving the EU and the Scotch would really be sitting in the shyte. If UKIP somes to power if I would hope that Farage would immediately declare the vote null and void and send in the army. The legal basis for this would be the unfair EU voting rules that allow Germans citizens living in Scotland to vote but disallows Scots living in England from voting.

I would also add that if UKIP comes to power but fails to deliver the BNP will waiting in the wings…[/quote]

UKIP won’t deliver shit. They’re a sanitised centre right popularist party. And BNP is all washed up. In 10-20 years British nationalism will be stronger. They need a political faction and a revolutionary vanguard. The first step would be the occupation of a major city - probably Leeds - modelled after the occupation of Fiume.

Parliamentary democracy has failed. The country will need to be taken back from the ruling class.

#12

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
I’m voting no, as is most my family and about half my friends.

We’ve done increasingly well with devolved power since 1998 and would rather continue going down that route steadily than haphazardly jump into independence with questionable North Sea oil supplies and a lazy populous. [/quote]

I’m betting the no vote will prevail. It is the wrong time to really ask people to put faith in going independent since we are just coming out of a recession. It’s a bit of an odd situation though I feel. Although some of the yes voters have been rather cuntish and saying crap like if you don’t vote yes you are a turncoat, I actually am not bothered by their decision to vote yes. I feel it’s a split between types of people: those who are more optimistic/filled with faith and those who are pragmatic/content - it just means no one is really wrong in their decision, its just how they are.[/quote]

as usual, talking sense.

i agree, a no vote is more likely. personally I would have gone for devo-max, but its not on the table anymore

so my take on it is:-

do you want a bland meal that you have had every day of your life? then vote no
do you want a super-hot curry that could be the best tasting thing ever, but may also make you ill? if so vote yes

I would have gone for the medium meal. spicier than what Im used to but no chance of making me ill- devo-max

but now that devo-max is off the menu, I dont see why I should vote at all. what I want isnt on the menu

#13

[quote]susani wrote:
I’m in Scotland. I think the ‘no’ vote will win. My main reason for saying this is that I’ve observed that those in the ‘Yes’ camp will openly tell you this but ‘No’ voters are far more inclined to not want to talk about it much. My guess is most of those claiming to be undecided in the polls are ‘No’ voters just not wanting to say.

I think a huge part of this comes down to a kind of emotional thing - and I don’t mean ‘Braveheart’ romanticism. Lots of people love the idea of being independent. They consider themselves Scottish more than British. They relish the opportunity to MAKE things work - even if the odds are stacked against them. Scotland is far more left wing than the UK as a whole but because it’s population is so low the Scottish vote never seems to make a dent. It’s probably worth it to them even if they were worse off for years.

Those that consider themselves British more than Scottish are less likely to want it because the risks are too great and the potential rewards (for them) are low to non-existent. And of course they like being British more than they like being Scottish. Those with more right wing views are likely to be against it simply because there would be a big shift to the left in political rule in an independent Scotland.
[/quote]

first paragraph, totally agree. a lot of no voters just dont want to admit it. but in the privacy of a polling booth…

#14

[quote]bluebrasil wrote:

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
I’m voting no, as is most my family and about half my friends.

We’ve done increasingly well with devolved power since 1998 and would rather continue going down that route steadily than haphazardly jump into independence with questionable North Sea oil supplies and a lazy populous. [/quote]

I’m betting the no vote will prevail. It is the wrong time to really ask people to put faith in going independent since we are just coming out of a recession. It’s a bit of an odd situation though I feel. Although some of the yes voters have been rather cuntish and saying crap like if you don’t vote yes you are a turncoat, I actually am not bothered by their decision to vote yes. I feel it’s a split between types of people: those who are more optimistic/filled with faith and those who are pragmatic/content - it just means no one is really wrong in their decision, its just how they are.[/quote]

as usual, talking sense.

i agree, a no vote is more likely. personally I would have gone for devo-max, but its not on the table anymore

so my take on it is:-

do you want a bland meal that you have had every day of your life? then vote no
do you want a super-hot curry that could be the best tasting thing ever, but may also make you ill? if so vote yes

I would have gone for the medium meal. spicier than what Im used to but no chance of making me ill- devo-max

but now that devo-max is off the menu, I dont see why I should vote at all. what I want isnt on the menu
[/quote]

From what i understand of it, the Gordon Brown model will be coming to Scotland if the no campaign wins. More devolution is coming, even if the yes vote succeeds.
As a user of the pound, I would rather not see a run on it. But, as a Northern Irish Catholic, I can absolutely empathize with not giving a shit about the consequences. Celts are good at cutting off their nose, despite their face lol.

#15

[quote]furo wrote:
CMDad - yeah that’s exactlly what I think will happen here. And I agree with Susani that I think a lot of the people who aren’t vocal will end up voting no. It’s all very interesting anyway, not long to go now!

Susani - sorry this is off-topic, I just quickly wanted to ask where you got the frame that’s in your avi? I could definitely do with one of them! (Not sure if the mods will let yoou post links though).[/quote]

So many people ask that!! If you’re in the USA you’re in luck. In the UK not so much.

It’s Tactical Athletes System (google it). We had to get it imported into the UK but well worth the cost. It’s rock solid, adjustable from 5ft to 9ft and you can do pretty much anything on it. Can be used outside under shelter from direct rain (but not in the UK I expect due to the climate).

It’s not cheap but one of my better purchases!

#16

Thanks a lot! I’m Scottish, but I’ll see if I can get hold of it :slight_smile:

#17

[quote]Sifu wrote:
The Scotch are a whinging bunch of worthless socialists who will be in for a rude awakening when they can no longer skive off of the English. As painful as the divorce would be, the English would be far better off to be shod of them.

Haha!.. Scotch is a drink, you tit! Maybe you should try drinking a bottle and you may spout less crap (maybe).

#18

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
The Scotch are a whinging bunch of worthless socialists who will be in for a rude awakening when they can no longer skive off of the English. As painful as the divorce would be, the English would be far better off to be shod of them.

Haha!.. Scotch is a drink, you tit! Maybe you should try drinking a bottle and you may spout less crap (maybe).[/quote]

It’s also a brand of sticky tape you Pillock! My fathers best friend is a Scotsman,along with some of my relatives. I’ve had to eat more blood pies for Christmas than I care to think about…

#19

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
The Scotch are a whinging bunch of worthless socialists who will be in for a rude awakening when they can no longer skive off of the English. As painful as the divorce would be, the English would be far better off to be shod of them.
[/quote]
Haha!.. Scotch is a drink, you tit! Maybe you should try drinking a bottle and you may spout less crap (maybe).[/quote]

It’s also a brand of sticky tape you Pillock! My fathers best friend is a Scotsman,along with some of my relatives. I’ve had to eat more blood pies for Christmas than I care to think about… [/quote]

“Scotch” is plural of “Scot.”

It also means: (1) to block something that rolls with a chock; (2) to maim, but not kill; and (3) “inclined to frugality.”

For example:

The “Some Scotch and some Jews found the same penny and invented copper wire because they are both scotch. The Scotch attacked the Jews in response, but only scotched them because the Jews unscotched the Scotch barrels and they all ran down the streets.”

#20

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
The Scotch are a whinging bunch of worthless socialists who will be in for a rude awakening when they can no longer skive off of the English. As painful as the divorce would be, the English would be far better off to be shod of them.
[/quote]
Haha!.. Scotch is a drink, you tit! Maybe you should try drinking a bottle and you may spout less crap (maybe).[/quote]

It’s also a brand of sticky tape you Pillock! My fathers best friend is a Scotsman,along with some of my relatives. I’ve had to eat more blood pies for Christmas than I care to think about… [/quote]

“Scotch” is plural of “Scot.”

It also means: (1) to block something that rolls with a chock; (2) to maim, but not kill; and (3) “inclined to frugality.”

For example:

The “Some Scotch and some Jews found the same penny and invented copper wire because they are both scotch. The Scotch attacked the Jews in response, but only scotched them because the Jews unscotched the Scotch barrels and they all ran down the streets.”


[/quote]

Maybe in that dictionary. However, if you head to Glasgow and declare that the Scottish (or Scots) are the Scotch look forward to a very unfriendly reception.

It is considered a derogatory term for some reason, similar to ‘Paki’ and ‘Yid’ (although maybe not as strong).