Schools Legislating?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:

If the parent’s were putting on the dance, it would be their responsibility to take that right away. If the school is putting on the dance, it is their right to say we aren’t going to allow little criminals into our dance.

You would think it would be the school’s responsibility to inform the parents and step back so the parents can actually parent. If you have parents getting upset at the action, what have the kids learned? Not a damn thing other than that this one school doesn’t like it but their parents really aren’t that pissed. They may be even more likely to do it again because there was no lesson learned. Great tactic, teach.
[/quote]

You’re just being stupid. The parents are still free to punish the kids. The school hasn’t stopped the parents from grounding/beating the kids.

Ideally, of course you’d want to parents to handle it. But guess what? Most parents are as dumb as their kids. Obviously these parents haven’t done their job or their kids wouldn’t be stupid enough to be posting pictures of their crimes on the internet. Does that mean no one should try and teach these kids that there are consequences for their actions?

Funny enough, my younger brother was telling me of a similar incident that happened at my old high school. Some girl took pictures at a party where underage drinking was involved and posted them on 1 of those online photo albums like webshots. Word of it got back to the teachers, bunch of kids got suspended from sports and whatnot.

East Grand Rapids High School is actually only about five minutes from where I live and this is being discussed quite a bit around here. I think what’s mostly being discussed is how dumb the kids were though. The local rock station was talking about it somewhat on the morning show when I was working out this morning and some discussion was hit as far as how far should a school go with this.

http://video.woodtv.com/index.php?video_id=2286

The kids weren’t suspended from school, they were just suspended from extracarricular activities though and I personnaly think that is fine. When I was in high school I was always told that being an athlete representing your school was special and a priveledge. It was mandatory shirt and tie on friday for game day, that kind of stuff.

In my senior year our football team had an excellent player who started on both sides of the ball, this guy was real good and intense. The problem was that he was also a smoker, and coach had told every member of the team that if they were caught smoking or drinking, they were off the team. Period. When the coach seen him smoking outside of the mall on a weekend sometime in the middle of our season, he was off the team no questions asked. Looking back I really respect our coach’s integrity.

Discipline and responsibility originate in the home, absolutely. However schools have every right to set standards like these and stick to them IMO.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Discipline and responsibility originate in the home, absolutely. However schools have every right to set standards like these and stick to them IMO.[/quote]

The problem arises when the parents completely disagree with the punishment. It means the kids learned NOTHING except to hate the school for it.

[quote]doogie wrote:
You’re just being stupid. The parents are still free to punish the kids. The school hasn’t stopped the parents from grounding/beating the kids.

Ideally, of course you’d want to parents to handle it. But guess what? Most parents are as dumb as their kids. Obviously these parents haven’t done their job or their kids wouldn’t be stupid enough to be posting pictures of their crimes on the internet. Does that mean no one should try and teach these kids that there are consequences for their actions?[/quote]

If the parents are as dumb as the kids, then we are in a for a shit load of trouble in the future but who hasn’t seen that coming? The point is, nothing was learned. It was an exercise in futility that, at the most, allowed groups like us to discuss the issue and to avoid similar in our own homes.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
You’re just being stupid. The parents are still free to punish the kids. The school hasn’t stopped the parents from grounding/beating the kids.

Ideally, of course you’d want to parents to handle it. But guess what? Most parents are as dumb as their kids. Obviously these parents haven’t done their job or their kids wouldn’t be stupid enough to be posting pictures of their crimes on the internet. Does that mean no one should try and teach these kids that there are consequences for their actions?

If the parents are as dumb as the kids, then we are in a for a shit load of trouble in the future but who hasn’t seen that coming? The point is, nothing was learned. It was an exercise in futility that, at the most, allowed groups like us to discuss the issue and to avoid similar in our own homes.[/quote]

Unfortunately, it is the case today that many of the parents are dumber than the kids or less responsible. Many parents truly do place the task of raising their children in the hands of the school and it drives me up a wall.

Yes, I know, isn’t it a major crime when somebody a few months under the drinking age decides to drink.

There are crimes and there are CRIMES. The lesson I see being taught is not one of responsibility, it is one of hating authority.

Of course, I have to agree, posting evidence of you breaking the rules is a stupid thing to do, but at the same time I’m surprised the schools feel it is their duty to spend tax dollars monitoring for such evidence.

We have law enforcement agencies which are designed to do that… don’t we? The school is not expected to be a law enforcement agency, seeking out evidence of misdeeds and exacting punishment outside of the legal system, is it?

At my high school, kids would show up drunk (underaged) for school dances. If it was detected, they would be sent away and perhaps parents would be notified. The school did not feel it was under any compulsion to exact punishment for personal behavior conducted outside of school grounds.

I can’t stand the feeling that seems to pervade these days concerning authority and behavior. Is there some concept of utopia out there made up of automatons that never break any rules, no matter how minor, that we are trying to achieve?

Seriously, one of the highlights of my high school days is when the vice-principal called me in to discuss the fact I had skipped some classes. I was a smart kid, my grades were fine, I was used to making my own choices. Anyway, this guy asks me where I was on a certain date.

I thought I was cooked. Hey, it’s the chance I took, I was fine with this. Then I realized I had a major quiz that day in economics. This was one of my favorite subjects and I was doing very well in it. I told him so. I told him that I was missing that favorite class of mine right now even.

When he apologized, I was a smartass and told him not to let it happen again… then returned to my class.

Ahahahaha. Now that was priceless.

I know the school was trying to help look out for me, such that I didn’t skip and fail and get drawn into a life of crime, but there was never any danger of those things happening anyway. If they hadn’t of goofed up I might have faced some discipline, which I would have accepted, but as it was I wasn’t inclined to stop skipping class to go play frisbee down at the beach.

The world is doomed because I stole those moments of enjoyment. I know it. Sorry guys, all the ills of the world are obviously my fault.

If you are a kid out there, my advice to you is to make sure you have your shit together and keep your ducks in a row. If that means you don’t have the ability to drink and otherwise misbehave, then fine, don’t do it.

If you do decide to misbehave, you can at least do that responsibly as well. Don’t take unnecessary risks and make sure there are competent people around you looking out for your best interests when you aren’t in a position to do so. I think this last point is overlooked and leads to a lot of the tragedies that we hear about.

I don’t think the misbehavior will ever stop, but there are certainly some ways to misbehave that are much safer and have much less consequences than others.

What a bunch of power hungry authoritarian squares. No wonder kids think their parents are zombies or aliens – they barely qualify as alive through the behavior they exhibit or ask for.

[quote]vroom wrote:
At my high school, kids would show up drunk (underaged) for school dances. If it was detected, they would be sent away and perhaps parents would be notified. The school did not feel it was under any compulsion to exact punishment for personal behavior conducted outside of school grounds.[/quote]

I agree with this. I was in 9th grade Biology class when one of my friends came to class drunk as shit. Apparently, it was his first time drinking an entire bottle of Mad Dog 20/20. He passed out in class (the teacher thought he was just sleeping). Upon her insisting that he wake up, he got up and loudly vomited what must have been everything he ate in the last 14 years of his life into the sink we had in class. He was seent home for the day. I am sure his parents were notified, but that was the extent of the school deciding his overall punishment. Kids do dumb shit. It is the parent’s responsibility to RAISE them.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

The point you are all missing is that I think that the school feels a need to step in because WHERE THE H**L ARE THE PARENTS? WHY DON’T THEY KNOW WHAT THEIR KIDS ARE DOING? WHAT VALUES HAVE (OR HAVE NOT) INSTILLED IN THEIR KIDS?

As a teacher I see this all of the time. Parents abdicate their role to teh schools. It is the “you take them and teach them attitude.” That is simply wrong. It is the parents role to teach their children and instill moral and ethical values in them. The problem is that with so many broken homes, alchohol abuse, etc. what do you think the young people will be like.

PARENTS WAKE UP![/quote]

I agree with you on almost the entire post. It is not up to the school or up to the teachers to teach the child right from wrong to teach them not to be out getting drunk and being dumb enough to put your pictures on a site for the world to see. That right there, is the job of a parent. I know kids can’t be monitored 24/7 but if they are scared of consequences, I promise you they will at least think twice before acting a fool.

ALL teens I don’t care how good they are or how on the straight and narrow they are, they are going to push the limits at least once or twice and it is NOT up to the school to punish them, with that, I agree with you completely.

However, and this goes only for students who are involved in sports at school, or in drama club or whatever, it looks bad on the school when they are caught so I agree they should have a say in not letting them participate for a while. When I was in high school (late 90’s), I was on drill team and after a game one night, we all went out to celebrate. No one was still in uniform and no one was on school grounds, but we got caught drinking and more than half the squad had to sit out for the next two games all because a parent saw us and reported us. I was pretty pissed at the time, but now, I would have no problem with the school taking action. But either way, it falls back on parenting. Kids are given too many freedoms nowadays. They have their own cell phones, their own computers, brand new cars, no curfews and you can’t even pop them upside the head anymore when they are being unruly.

Well, that’s just my 2 cents worth.

:slight_smile:

I just thought of something. Who really wants to grow up in a world where there are no stories like this? School would have been boring as hell if every kid simply followed the rules.

[quote]grew7 wrote:
The point of school is to make people into non-thinking, obedient consumer whores.[/quote]

Right, which means we should fight every attempt to distribute vouchers or give people a choice… Wait, that’s not right.

[quote]doogie wrote:

They suspended them from extracurricular activities, not from class. You have no right to go to dances or play football. [/quote]

Doesnt matter they should still sue because they are being punished unless the school actually had a moral grouds to do such a thing.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I think you are all missing the point here. Believe it or not, I don’t believe the school has a role here at all! If the kids were not at an official school function or some event that was in the name of the school, then the school has no role.

The point you are all missing is that I think that the school feels a need to step in because WHERE THE H**L ARE THE PARENTS? WHY DON’T THEY KNOW WHAT THEIR KIDS ARE DOING? WHAT VALUES HAVE (OR HAVE NOT) INSTILLED IN THEIR KIDS?

As a teacher I see this all of the time. Parents abdicate their role to teh schools. It is the “you take them and teach them attitude.” That is simply wrong. It is the parents role to teach their children and instill moral and ethical values in them. The problem is that with so many broken homes, alchohol abuse, etc. what do you think the young people will be like.

PARENTS WAKE UP![/quote]

Very nice post.

This was my original intent. I don’t think the schools have any right to do things like this.

Besides not having the right, it is not their job to monitor the kids after hours. If the kids are safe when they are in school, then the school has accomplished its job in that respect.

The parents, however, will bitch about things like the kids getting suspended, but at the same time they won’t do anything to change it. Its like they want the responsibility for their kids actions only when it suits them.

[quote]GeorgeMontyIV wrote:
doogie wrote:

They suspended them from extracurricular activities, not from class. You have no right to go to dances or play football.

Doesnt matter they should still sue because they are being punished unless the school actually had a moral grouds to do such a thing.[/quote]

In most states, the concept of in loco parentis still holds for public schools. Schools act as surrogate parents.

Anyone with parenting skills shitty enough to allow them to say, “I suck so bad at being a parent that my kid was not only getting drunk, but was stupid enough to post pictures of it on the internet. I’m not going to teach my kid that there are consequences for his actions, and I don’t think the school should either” needs to have their ass kicked.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I think it’s funny that we now live in such authoritarian times that schools monitor student behavior, on their own time, so that they can be punished for breaking the rules.

Admittedly, the school does not have to let people participate in extra-curricular activities, but I really can’t see any good from having the government act as a nanny in this way.

I think they should retitle Orwell’s novel 2024 so that people will continue to read it. I think the fact the title is 1984 has people thinking it has no relevance…[/quote]

Holy shit, I agree with vroom! What is the world coming to!

I think that if they looked closely at the school rules, they don’t apply to a student’s free time or life outside of school. Sounds like the school thinks it is taking the place of the parents. Maybe they should also monitor what the teachers do when they are not working as well?

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think it’s funny that we now live in such authoritarian times that schools monitor student behavior, on their own time, so that they can be punished for breaking the rules.

Admittedly, the school does not have to let people participate in extra-curricular activities, but I really can’t see any good from having the government act as a nanny in this way.

I think they should retitle Orwell’s novel 2024 so that people will continue to read it. I think the fact the title is 1984 has people thinking it has no relevance…

Holy shit, I agree with vroom! What is the world coming to!

I think that if they looked closely at the school rules, they don’t apply to a student’s free time or life outside of school. Sounds like the school thinks it is taking the place of the parents. Maybe they should also monitor what the teachers do when they are not working as well?[/quote]

Hehe, Makes me think of the part in Wierd Science when the biker gang member says “can we keep this between us…I’d hate to lose my teaching job”

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think it’s funny that we now live in such authoritarian times that schools monitor student behavior, on their own time, so that they can be punished for breaking the rules.

Admittedly, the school does not have to let people participate in extra-curricular activities, but I really can’t see any good from having the government act as a nanny in this way.

I think they should retitle Orwell’s novel 2024 so that people will continue to read it. I think the fact the title is 1984 has people thinking it has no relevance…

Holy shit, I agree with vroom! What is the world coming to!

I think that if they looked closely at the school rules, they don’t apply to a student’s free time or life outside of school. Sounds like the school thinks it is taking the place of the parents. Maybe they should also monitor what the teachers do when they are not working as well?

Hehe, Makes me think of the part in Wierd Science when the biker gang member says “can we keep this between us…I’d hate to lose my teaching job”

[/quote]

I doubt this would last 2 minutes if suddenly what the teachers do outside of work is a constant reflection of the school. Why does this only apply to students?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think it’s funny that we now live in such authoritarian times that schools monitor student behavior, on their own time, so that they can be punished for breaking the rules.

Admittedly, the school does not have to let people participate in extra-curricular activities, but I really can’t see any good from having the government act as a nanny in this way.

I think they should retitle Orwell’s novel 2024 so that people will continue to read it. I think the fact the title is 1984 has people thinking it has no relevance…

Holy shit, I agree with vroom! What is the world coming to!

I think that if they looked closely at the school rules, they don’t apply to a student’s free time or life outside of school. Sounds like the school thinks it is taking the place of the parents. Maybe they should also monitor what the teachers do when they are not working as well?

Hehe, Makes me think of the part in Wierd Science when the biker gang member says “can we keep this between us…I’d hate to lose my teaching job”

I doubt this would last 2 minutes if suddenly what the teachers do outside of work is a constant reflection of the school. Why does this only apply to students?[/quote]

WTF are ya’ll talking about?

Teachers get fired all of the time for ILLEGAL activity off school campus.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think it’s funny that we now live in such authoritarian times that schools monitor student behavior, on their own time, so that they can be punished for breaking the rules.

Admittedly, the school does not have to let people participate in extra-curricular activities, but I really can’t see any good from having the government act as a nanny in this way.

I think they should retitle Orwell’s novel 2024 so that people will continue to read it. I think the fact the title is 1984 has people thinking it has no relevance…

Holy shit, I agree with vroom! What is the world coming to!

I think that if they looked closely at the school rules, they don’t apply to a student’s free time or life outside of school. Sounds like the school thinks it is taking the place of the parents. Maybe they should also monitor what the teachers do when they are not working as well?

Hehe, Makes me think of the part in Wierd Science when the biker gang member says “can we keep this between us…I’d hate to lose my teaching job”

I doubt this would last 2 minutes if suddenly what the teachers do outside of work is a constant reflection of the school. Why does this only apply to students?

WTF are ya’ll talking about?

Teachers get fired all of the time for ILLEGAL activity off school campus.
[/quote]

The difference bro, is that it is NOT the schools responsibility to punish students for illegal activity on their own time. It is the parents responsibility and the law. As an adult, you are responsible for your actions, so the school has a right to fire you for illegal activity outside work. But the legal responsibility of kids fall to the parents, not the school outside of school time.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
I think it’s funny that we now live in such authoritarian times that schools monitor student behavior, on their own time, so that they can be punished for breaking the rules.

Admittedly, the school does not have to let people participate in extra-curricular activities, but I really can’t see any good from having the government act as a nanny in this way.

I think they should retitle Orwell’s novel 2024 so that people will continue to read it. I think the fact the title is 1984 has people thinking it has no relevance…

Holy shit, I agree with vroom! What is the world coming to!

I think that if they looked closely at the school rules, they don’t apply to a student’s free time or life outside of school. Sounds like the school thinks it is taking the place of the parents. Maybe they should also monitor what the teachers do when they are not working as well?

Hehe, Makes me think of the part in Wierd Science when the biker gang member says “can we keep this between us…I’d hate to lose my teaching job”

I doubt this would last 2 minutes if suddenly what the teachers do outside of work is a constant reflection of the school. Why does this only apply to students?

WTF are ya’ll talking about?

Teachers get fired all of the time for ILLEGAL activity off school campus.

The difference bro, is that it is NOT the schools responsibility to punish students for illegal activity on their own time. It is the parents responsibility and the law. As an adult, you are responsible for your actions, so the school has a right to fire you for illegal activity outside work. But the legal responsibility of kids fall to the parents, not the school outside of school time.

[/quote]

I gaurantee you every court in the nation disagrees with you. The schools have no obligation to allow criminals to participate in extra-curricular activities. It’s not punishment, it’s standards.