T Nation

School vouchers

OK, I’m pissed about this one. The Supreme Court upheld school vouchers today, for those of you who didn’t hear it.

Am I the only one concerned about what this is going to do to already underfunded urban districts? Disadvantaged kids?

This goddamn court is enough to make me vote against Bush in the next election. Add this to the drug testing in schools verdict and the SC’s had much better weeks, IMO.

Anybody else pissed off?

I’m not pissed at all. I feel that this has made the schools into more of a free-market economy. Those that don’t give quality will not get the money. In a localized area it can produce some headaches, but overall I see it as a good move.

The public school system needs reform. Throwing money at it is not going to fix it. The teachers unions are the ones who don’t want to work harder to produce better students. IMO, vouchers create competition, competition produces ingenuity and progress. It has nothing to do with anyone’s administration. The public school system is lacking no matter who is currently in charge. This will be no overnight, microwave fast fix.

I agree. The whole school system in this county needs a major overhaul. Schools need first to be standardized. That means if you graduate from high school you should have certain basic skills. I could go on for hours on this, but I won’t.

I’m more pissed off about the Pledge of Allegiance ruling. If GOD is the big issue, just take “under God” out of the allegiance as it was pre 1954 and keep the rest.

I agree with the ruling on the PoA. It isn’t the court’s responsibility (nor within their powers) to effect a change in the Pledge. That’s up to Congress. All the court can do is point out that something violates the constitution.

I hear the areas that have vouchers are doing well. Is this correct? Something has to be done to improve this country’s education system.

What shocks me is the people who live in areas where their kids go to awful, wretched schools, and yet claim they are AGAINST vouchers. Are they out of their MINDS? You would think they’d look at it as a godsend.

You guys are confusing being “constitutional” and being good. It is not the supreme court’s job to decide whether it is going to be beneficial or harmful. Their job is to merely see if it violates law, common law (old English thing), or the Constitution. If you don’t like it, fight against your state/district allowing it, but don’t get angry at the supreme court.

On a side note, about the pledge issue, it sounds like this thing is going to be overturned. My problem is that nobody forced the little girl to say it and students should have a right to say it if they choose. California (where this comes out of) law says nobody has to participate. Another example of the liberal few stomping their feet and using the courts to impose their whinyness on everyone else.

I think school vouchers is a great idea. It was shot down here in Pa. a few years ago after it was proposed and backed by then-governor, now Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge. Bottom line, the staunch left-wingers don’t want vouchers, and they fight against the voucher program ferociously every time it’s introduced into legislation.

Wrong question. Here is the right one: What the fuck is the government doing in the education business to start with? Anything that weans us away from the gov’t is a good thing.

To keep from reiterating, I think Huck, JCBart, Damici and V2 were pretty much right on the money. I think this is a fairly partisan issue anyway.

i’m glad they did it. it was the right decision. the government near monopoly on education is not doing what they should be. make the school system a free market and you will see great improvements in the quality of education. the schools that can’t educate or teach improper/immoral things will go under and the better scools will survive.

I am conservative and as a rule I do not like to see our time-honored institutions messed with. I agree with you, if you have a problem with “under God” don’t say it. But the rest of the Pledge has great significance. I think that it reminds us of our duty as citizens.
That being said, I think that the courts, in general, do a good job of maintaining the seperation between church and state. The beauty of our system is that we are not told what or if to believe. The belief system is very personal and I believe that that is where it should stay. As a general rule, we should resist the demands of the far left and the far right. They are both very dangerous to civilized societies.

I don’t think that 48 years is really very “time honored.” As the court said, even if a child is not required to say the pledge, they are put in the situation of either having to comply or to, in effect, stage a protest. The pledge was changed specifically to introduce God as a “unifying force” for America. I’m a fairly conservative guy, but this does violate separation of church and state. Our motto, “E Plurbus Unum,” (Out of many, one) was also changed to “In God We Trust.” Come on.

From reading the previous posts it has been a long time since any of you have been in a classroom. Vouchers are not the answer to our educational system’s problems. The arguement that it makes schools “competitive” doesn’t work. If schools don’t get money from the government they don’t get it. I don’t see corporations lining up to help out schools or people spending there time making sure students and teachers have everything they need. Instead schools are expected to serve more and more students on very little money. What business expects itself to produce more quantity and better quality without upgrading it’s tools and paying it’s employees better? I see too many unqualified teachers in the classroom. They don’t do sh*t to give the kids an education. Why? Why not? The pay sucks and no one is going to fill that spot if they are fired. If you want to help education you will support your teachers and principals more. Stop voting no for taxes when it comes to education and hire some qualified people. Otherwise shut up. If you do have kids, wake up and make their school better. I hear too much “they should do this, why don’t they do that…” What the hell have you done? Besides make more babies to overpopulate this earth.

(The arguement that it makes schools “competitive” doesn’t work)… let’s try it and find out… (I don’t see corporations lining up to help out schools or people spending there time making sure students and teachers have everything they need)…The function of a corporation is to make money for the shareholders, not to educate children… (Instead schools are expected to serve more and more students on very little money)…DC spends more per pupil than anywhere, and has shitty results. It depends on the parents and the people in the schools, not on how much is spent… (What business expects itself to produce more quantity and better quality without upgrading it’s tools and paying it’s employees better? )…None, of course, but then public schools are not a business, are they??..(I see too many unqualified teachers in the classroom.) …Why is it that everytime a plan is proposed to test teachers and subject them to merit pay (pay them based on their students success rates)the NEA fights it tooth and nail…(They don’t do sh*t to give the kids an education. Why? Why not? The pay sucks and no one is going to fill that spot if they are fired)…Why would someone put in the time for a college education, and then use it to land a low-paying job? … (If you want to help education you will support your teachers and principals more. Stop voting no for taxes when it comes to education and hire some qualified people)… Funny how we have a government employee encouraging us to pay more taxes. Guess he knows where his bread is buttered…(Otherwise shut up. If you do have kids, wake up and make their school better. I hear too much “they should do this, why don’t they do that…” What the hell have you done? Besides make more babies to overpopulate this earth.)…Personally, I have raised two boys to manhood. You might ask yourself why the idea of competition is so frightening. You might also do a little research before posting. Why would you assume that corps should pay for education? Do you understand how the free market works? Did you even check to see if there is a correlation between per pupil spending and graduation rates / performance? Are you aware of the current voucher programs? how are they doing? How do private schools in general compare with public schools? BTW, I was talking with my son about banking, and cash flow earlier this year, and explained to him exactly how a bank works, and what their typical revenue sources and expenses were. Sounds pretty simple, right? I had him ask all his teachers (11th grade). The only one that knew was his math teacher, an old guy in his 60s. When Chris told him the younger teachers were clueless, he muttered “I am not surprised.”


Lot’s of good free-market comments on this
already.

"Am I the only one concerned about what this is going to do to already underfunded urban districts?"

Umm, maybe it would allow kids from underfunded urban districts get quality education from real schools? (Which they can't get under the current system.)

"If schools don't get money from the government they don't get it."

Is that why parents shell out millions of dollars every year to pay for their kids college education at both public and private universities?

"I don't see corporations lining up to help out schools"

Then you havn't been looking very hard. Companies need educated staff to be competitive and successful. Ongoing training and education of "corporate" employess is a multi-hundred million dollar industry.

"They don't do sh*t to give the kids an education. Why?"

Some do, some don't. Because they have government-sponsered tenure.

"Stop voting no for taxes when it comes to education and hire some qualified people"

How about we reduce taxes so people can afford to pay for education independently of government.

Fact is, vouchers will do everything to improve education for all. More money never has solved problems for government schools. Who would thing they are “public” anyway?

On topic FYI:

The Economist on school vouchers.

http://www.economist.com/ opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=998579