T Nation

Scar Tissue Build Up


#1

So you always hear that you should rotate sites to control the scar tissue build up.
I currently rotate shoulders (always trading between side and front delts) with a 3cc hit once a week and a .5cc shot eod. I dont see where the product would matter but I am using 23g 1.5's.

With this many shots and using 2 spots per delt and rotating as, left front, right front, left side, right side and so on.

Should I be concerned about the build up of scar tissue anytime soon?
WHy is the build up of scar tissue bad. I would assume it is because it would take much more stress (if even possible) to tear the scar tissue so the build up of new muscle over it would be smaller then normal..

Thanks


#2

You should be using more sites and yes, scar tissue build-up will eventually become an issue. Scar tissue buildup will probably become an issue on any given site granted a long enough timeline.

If you are using a 23g and shooting delts over and over, it will probably be sooner, rather than later. The most annoying thing about scar tissue build-up is that, when you try injecting, the plunger just won't move anymore. It just doesn't go. So eventually, you will have to find another site. Glute and ventroglute work great, and for those .5cc shots, quads would almost certainly not be a problem, either. There may be other issues with scar tissue that I am not aware of, but this one is certainly the most immediate one.

Also, shooting into your anterior deltoid is asking for trouble. Use the lateral or posterior for injections, but I would not consider lateral and then posterior as two separate sites. You are just better off overall rotating more sites. Why aren't you?

Incidentally, I believe Dave_ (hey where are you, btw, man, we're missing you here!) has said somewhere that one good ART session will break up built-up scar tissue, but that it hurts like nothing else.


#3

I am still new at this game and cant get to my ass very easy. I have read a ton of horror stories about legs. Right now if my arm gets soar, tough shit, but if my leg hurts like a bitch thats going to cause problems at work as I am on my feet running around all day long and walking like I finally took the stick out my ass doesn't sound like fun... but I guess I am going to have to man up(or make the wife poke my ass).....
Any good web sites for darting locations?

Ill look in to the Active Release Technique

thanks
anyone on else on the downsides to Scar Tissue buildup?


#4

I hear you on the soreness. However, it's only the first few times that are going to cause significant soreness. I've always pinned primarily in the glute and ventro glute along with quads and occassionally delts. The soreness in your legs won't prohibit you from doing your job. I have a very active job and while it definitely wasn't comfortable, it didn't limit me. Take a look at the steroid newbie thread as there are links in there to sites for pinning and there are numerous threads on the ventro glute thread though I know the search engine sucks. Hope that helps.

Also, I've pinned with 23g before, but now I use 25 and love it. Maybe consider switching to a smaller size?


#5

Though quads may (highly doubtful with a 0.5ml injection), glute and ventroglute will not cause any hindrance to your mobility at all. Glute is also not hard to get to unless you are too busy making excuses. Does someone wipe your ass for you?


#6

My first 3 or 4 injectable cycles were all done by gluteal injections and apart from the first shot which a friend did for me, i did them all myself. Being 'new to the game' means very little to me.
Also, when i have had painful injections due to oil volume or muscle intolerance to the bolus (as i get after each break it seems) i find that even the most painful ones - which affect how i look when i walk) are eased by stretching and activity. So if you are on your feet all day, you will 'walk off' a gluteal injection.

Glutes/VG will hurt too but it won't cripple you as much as a Quad shot may - if it is to be painful at all.

IME 0.5ml of any esterefied oil based product should not be painful.

3cc is more than i would ever shoot in one spot.

Scar tissue (in general) are areas of the tissue where healing has taken place. This process (without depth) lays down the 'new' tissue in a less linear pattern and thicker too. With rehabilitative techniques, scar tissue is laid down so as to make the injured area as strong or stronger than prior to the tear.
Naturally though it is weaker..

So if you have been poking one or two sites frequently for years, you will have ammassed a large area of weak and deformed tissue, which will injure more easily and cause issue to nerves and vessels due to it's deformity. I have not heard of a case of this personally, as i believe the knowledge is based on what we know about how the healing process works and not so much due to it being a frequent problem. Better safe than sorry - however i may be wrong on that last point. :wink:

Easy answer - just rotate and stop whining.


#7

For many, it's easier to hit the dorsogluteal site when you're lying down. Make sure to landmark it while you're standing up though.

Of course the ventrogluteal site is the real prize. With some very basic anatomy knowledge, you can learn how to pinpoint it accurately and there's always the option of asking any nurse, paramedic etc to help you locate it precisely.


#8

Not to hijack the thread but I injected pretty much quads only untill this cycle.I now rotate quads,glutes,VG and delts.Only problem is I don't think I started the rotation quick enough and I have scar tissue built up in the quads.Really hard to inject.I'm almost worried about breaking the syringe I have to push the plunger so hard..lol

Anyways I've taken the quads out of the rotation but I am wondering if by next cycle(3 or 4 months)if the scar tissue will soften up allowing for easier injections or if I'm basically stuck with this permantly?

Also if there is a way to get rid of the scar tissue let me know.Even if it's painfull.One thing I have realized is pain for the most part is temporary so if it's for a good cause u can find ways to deal with it.

Thanks


#9

Here's my similar experience

My first cycle I was doing 2 shots per week. I wasn't a fan of D glute early on because I wasn't good with controlling the needle and it bent the first two times I attempted it. So After the first week I stuck with quads only. I eventually built up a bit of scar tissue. Nothing to the point where I wasn't able to complete an injection, but there was some resistance that wasn't there in the beginning. The next time I used a long ester I rotated D glute and V glute, skipped quads completely. Then, some time later, I went back to quad shots and didn't notice resistance. So my experience is that minimal scar tissue build up may go away on its own after some time.


#10

I suppose, short of an actual ART session, you could try using a tennis ball to break some of it up. I've never tried this or heard of it used for our purposes, mind you, but I suppose it should achieve the same end result (if not as effective) as ART.


#11

Cortes, thanks for the answers,

Brook, as for my comment as a newbie, I meant more that I found a spot that worked good and didn't look for any other spots as I was comfortable hitting 3cc in a delt. You said you wouldnt do that much in one spot. Since I take the 3 in a delt does that mean I shouldn't have trouble in the glut with the same amount? If you had to hit 3cc you would break it up into different darts and areas?

Bonez, So you think your scare tissue subsided? I hope your right.

The only thing I noticed is a little more of a "pinch" while going in with the dart. The injection has not become any harder yet but I just want to stay on the safe side.

I will revisit the stickies for site locations.

Thanks for the help guys!!


#12

2ml is the medical recommended maximum due to sterile abscesses becoming an issue with larger volumes.. not to mention over 2ml fucking hurting most peeps.

Yes, if i need to inject 2ml i split it into 2 shots, sometimes use the same needle. If 5ml i would do 3 shots most likely.


#13

Anyone ever have any issues with injecting dorsogluteal and ventrogluteal within a day of each other because of proximity?


#14

Not me.


#15

There is absolutely no time you would ever need to - so no, because i don't.

I would simply rotate my injections logically.. so there would be a site or two sites inbetween those two sites.

But if it was ABSOLUTELY necessary (simply because you do not possess legs or an upper body - you are just hips, arse and a head - all connected with a wire and plugged into the wall socket) then you would inject LHS glute, RHS glute, LHS VG, RHS VG - this alone would give you two days (or one FULL day depending if you count in a strange way) between the shots that are close together.

Either way - just shoot your delts, biceps, quads, traps or lats inbetween. (I left out tricep as it is a horrible site)

JJ


#16

Why are you so insensitive to the less fortunate? Do you think you are better than people without legs and upper bodies?


#17

Thanks man.


#18

The question was out of curiosity, not necessity. Given that the dorsogluteal injection is depositing the bolus into the gluteus maximus, and ventrogluteal -> gluteus medius, it seemed likely that shooting both those sites within a close time frame would not lead to any higher incidence of scar tissue build up (similar to Bill's usage of multiple sites along the vastus lateralis).

Assuming there's no increased risk of scar tissue buildup, and assuming it doesn't produce extreme discomfort (save for those whose preparations are painful regardless), I'm not sure why shooting these two sites sequentially would be "illogical", even if it isn't necessary.

But that's a lot of assumptions, and thus the question...


#19

Similar experience here. On one of my first cycles I noticed increased injection resistance (but not to the point that I couldn't complete an injection) in a site due to what I believe was scar tissue. Went away without any active treatment.


#20

Sorry, I should have specified that I do not shoot them within one day of each other, but often do shoot those sites within two days of each other (RVG, LVG, RDG, LDG). As Brook says above, I cannot see any reason why a person would need to shoot them within a single day of each other. I sometimes shoot within two days just because I know my body and how it handles injections well enough at this point that I can feel when I am "ready" to receive one. Occasionally I do not feel ready and I will opt for a different site that day.