T Nation

Sarms: Ostarine & S4 Cycle

G’day all, long time lurker first time poster.

Age and do you have business fucking with your hormones? Right off the bat I am 23 years of age & I have been training for 9 years now (so lets disregard any age/training age discrepancies) now as to why not AAS? Use in my country comes with a hefty fine and long term prison sentence… so that’s why sarms… wanting to see results to see if that is the path my spider monkey allegedly wants to go down.

Now my sample cycle looks like this

Week 1 10mg Ostarine
Week 2 20mg Ostarine
Week 3 30mg Ostarine
Week 4 30mg Ostarine + 25mg S4
Week 5 - Week 10 30mg Ostarine + 50mg S4

And your goal is…? My goal is to do a body recomp, I am is 107kg at 6ft3, I want the sarms so when I eat at a calorie deficit I can hold on to my messily gains.

Have I taken anything before? Looks like a cycle for my granny! I have never used any form of enhancement except if you count a bronchial dialator I took for bronchitis… (I guess you could say it’s like clen? That’s another topic though) but that is the reasoning behind tapering up, I have no idea how I will react and want to see, and that’s also the reasoning behind taking S4 once I have reached my peak dose, to see what they do separately.

What about PCT you dumb fuck?? I also have an aromatase inhibitor on hand (Arim-Rx) but an not sure how to dose it I am very susceptible to estrogen conversion as I am currently natural and I get a pain behind my nips as it is… lol PLEASE ADVISE.

This “cycle” looks like shit, I hope you haven’t started yet?? Nah not yet, I would love some advise and constructive criticism before I possibly fuck myself.

As you have seen through my post I have taken the liberty to thoroughly take the piss out of myself, I would absolutely be grateful for some serious responses, if you must troll please add helpful advise or knowledge along side it, and make it obvious which one is the good advise PLEEEASE.

Thank you in advance.

If you do some reading on here you will see very mixed results from SARMs and some frightening shut downs of your HPTA. I wouldn’t touch them if someone paid me.

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I haven’t seen too many posts to do with it to be honest, the ones I have seen for sure have been quite worrying…

Correct me if I’m wrong but if there is complete shut down if I use a proper PCT I would get my balls back to working order? I’m planning on using AAS in the future so it’s not the biggest worry if so… since that would for sure do it.

Not sure why there is such strongly opposing sides, almost everyone I’ve spoken to have had awesome results (not as pronounced as juice for sure) until I did some digging here and people are treating like the devil.

If you do proper PCT you MIGHT get your HPTA back into working order; then again you might not. This is precisely why you’re seeing them treating so negatively here; they produce little gain when compared to AAS with all of the negative side effects.
The odds are that you’ll be fine and recover normally if you practice proper PCT but are you prepared for the chance that you don’t?

Shakily puts up hand “I volunteer as tribute?”

Could I please have an example of a proper PCT protocol? That would be swell.

Many information sources site that a proper PCT is not needed rather that an aromatase inhibitor along with an OTC test booster is sufficient, even the Enhanced Athlete website states that their AI is a sufficient PCT. I’m not sure what to believe…

That being said I’ve also seen one or two that preach a mini PCT is adequate as it is rather suppression than total shut down.

Interested in your response.

Attached is the photo of the said AI that is doubled as a PCT* for reference.

EL

I’d point you to the PCT sticky on this forum as the best source of info.
An AI only prevents the conversion of Testosterone to Estrogen…if your body is shut down (i.e. coming off a cycle) then of what benefit would an AI be in that situation?

Thank you for the link

Use in complete shut down? Absolutely none for sure, don’t get me wrong it’s not what I meant, why I mention it is advertised as the only thing needed though and complete shutdown is not something that I have come across as an issue up until now.

I guess I can see why so many are being messed up by this “unicorn” of a drug with “no sides”… urghh… but that is why I am here, my best recent advice comes from the articles posted!

Also I would love to know some feedback on the cycle mentioned if you wouldn’t mind of course, is tapering up worthwhile with Ostarine? S4 is a given due to it deleterious effects to eyesight and needed to know ones threshold for sides, but not sure about MK 2866…

Thank you for your help btw!

I don’t have experience with S4 but I did try a cycle of the MK677 and the only thing it did for me was make me hold a bunch of water.
This is the problem with SARMS in general, they promise ‘steriod-like’ benefits with none of the side effects and fail on both counts. The results are underwhelming and you still get all the bad sides as if you ran a true cycle of AAS. Now I know some folks claim that SARMS are the holygrail and I can’t argue with someone who claims to have seen results running them so I’ll limit my advice to this:
Anytime you are introducing a new compound to your body it is wisest to start with a small dosage and slowly work your way up until you’re operating at the recommended effective dose. I always suggest you have a complete set of blood work done prior to use as a baseline measurement for yourself when it comes time to PCT.

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So first off, this was a genuinely great introductory post. I’m serious. You made some jokes in anticipation of what you thought would be the typical responses, you gave us stats, you gave us reasons why you were considering this route, etc. Now…

You will be disappointed in Ostarine. It will suppress your testosterone and it will not give you much in return. SARMs are mostly bullshit when you look at the actual results and weigh them against the other options available. YK-11, which should not be classified as a SARM when the chemistry is taken into account, seems to have serious potential. But I believe that’s because it is, for all intents and purposes, a steroid. All the other SARMs out there seem to have varying degrees of efficacy, from “not much” (Ostarine) to “not too bad” (LGD). But after 10 weeks your system is going to be all kinds of fucked up and I honestly don’t know how much you’ll get out of your planned cycle. I would guess—I’m ballparking here so don’t take it as gospel—that within a week or two starting the S4 you will achieve near-total shutdown. I appreciate that you are mindful of the law in your country and that you don’t want to do something that would risk your freedom. That’s probably a smarter choice than a lot of us here make, if we’re being honest. But I don’t think SARMs are going to be the answer you’re looking for.

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I used Ostarine (25mg a day) for the hell of it to stave off muscle loss during a 4 week period (while on trt dose) where I wasnt able to train apart for BW exercises every other day. In that regard I will say it did work for me in preserving muscle mass and strength. As for shut down? I started my next blast when that time was done. I dint take more that my usual adex dose and felt fine.
Its not magic but i think it really would help in a cut, or for people with muscle wasting diseases.
Taking it alone i would not expect huge results and you would probably need to go for like 8 weeks and do a proper pct ie nolva

@yubs

Now assuming you meant to say that particular drug being MK 677 that is not a SARM you took a HGH secretion drug, I don’t pretend to know everything (hell I forgot once I got over the age of 16 magically!) but it really wouldn’t do much in terms of short term muscle gain.

My possibly flawed knowledge of HGH is that it does a fantastic job in replicating cells (which is why high disposition to tumour growth) over long term high use in very high physiological doses, hence enlargement of hands, phalanges, feet, cranium and organs think Barry Bonds. In younger subjects skeletal structure think Lee Priest, along with a more desirable effect of strengthening connective tissue and nice clear skin.

With steroidal hormones be it exogenous or home brewed it works beautifully in tangent (in theory!) but the cost, holy damn no.

@iron_yuppie

Thank you very much, I do see a bunch of naive younglings not unlike myself posting the same way and wanted it to actually be an okay read, can’t take the piss out of ones self don’t dare laugh at others hey!

Now when you say all kinds of fucked up is that relative to being natural or on the gods nectar? Correct me if I’m wrong (PLEASE DO)

SARMs not unlike steroids bind to androgen receptors, SARMs by nature are more picky selecting weather it be muscle, bone etc. Where as testosterone go for all receptors, muscle, bone, and once converting to DHT prostate and hair follicles.

Now, continuing the trend of comparison

AAS: If I took a physiological dose of testosterone the androgen receptors would be all binded to and the remaining free test is free to convert to estrogen binding to my nips and DHT binding to undesirable receptors. My body being a lazy so-n-so decides to stop secreting test and I am now shut down. Coming off cycle and running a PCT to get my balls in working order (not guaranteed) and waiting an appropriate time to then start again.

SARMs: If I took SARMs there is a high chance if I don’t take too much (S4 combined with Ostarine was actually stupid so disregard) I would have both my natural test along with the MK 2866 working in tangent, over a longer duration my body would pick up on the fact that I now have more test and start to suppress, making my cycle short enough to not have suppression for too long (8 weeks). MK 2866 does not convert to DHT so no deleterious sides on that front, estrogen is a given so combat that as usual. Coming off cycle my test is suppressed (coincidentally the title of a new Dr. Seuss book) and I would now need to bring it back up to full working order, take a mini PCT and boom back to baseline or just under. Let’s say that I am fully suppressed… bummer I would do a full PCT just like roids.

My point is I would not say that SARMs produce a result that is only bad, in fact there is much less. I think it’s main draw back (needle joke intended) in that it is in pill form, so the general masses gets their hands on it and has no clue what they are doing.

Is SARMs as good as juice, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no. I don’t need nor want it to be, I just want to see if my spider fish frog lizard chimp dragon wants to then jump on gear based on results. Make decent gains on SARMs? I’m gonna pin it to win it.

I will be documenting my progress on this site so look out for it :slight_smile:

@Merkava4

I think that working with a exogenous source of steroidal hormones at a low level is a good idea, suppression wouldn’t be an issue.

As for higher doses of AAS with SARMs I think having those receptors binded by an inferior drug is counterintuitive. Just like having a high dose of Test with Anavar, being overly faked aside I wouldn’t bother.

Good insight, I do appreciate the input, I may be asking about a proper cycle when I start (not my first though… 500mg test… not too hard!)

@Merkava4

Can you please elaborate? Nolva to be used in conjunction with a PCT? Here is a accurate description of the drug.

"Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate)

This is an oral anti-estrogen/estrogen antagonist prescription drug. Nolvadex is commonly referred to as an anti-estrogen, but technically it is more of an estrogen antagonist. An estrogen antagonist has a unique way of preventing estrogen activity. What it does is to compete with estrogen at the estrogen receptor sites, occupying them so that estrogen cannot bind with these receptors. Take note that Nolvadex does not directly prevent estrogen production, for it only blocks estrogen receptors from binding with estrogen. During Nolvadex use, there would still be elevated levels of estrogen in the system, it just can’t get to the receptors since Nolvadex does a good job of docking there first and keeping Estrogen out. Nolvadex itself does not send a signal when it is on the receptor, it just sits there and keeps Estrogen out."

Source material : https://www.evolutionary.org/chapter-9-steroid-ebook

Great for not getting big ol’ titties but in terms of getting the nads working wouldn’t I need something like Clomid?

@eliaslift You are correct that Mk677 is not a SARM; that is why I prefaced my statement by saying I had no experience with S4. The point was I felt the money would have been better spent on something other than Mk677…there was no improvement in any of the areas I should have been able to detect quickly (improved sleep, recovery, etc…). The only thing I didn’t do that I wish I did was have my IGF-1 levles tested while using MK-677 to determine if they were elevated; at least then I would have know if it was working at all.
You seem to think that there are varying degrees of ‘shutdown’ and that if you take a low enough dose of exogenous hormones your body will interpret that as an opportunity to simply decide to produce less endogenous hormones; that’s not how it works. Your body is going to see the exogenous supply of hormones and come to a full stop…the time that takes will vary based on your body, and the strength of the compounds you’re using but it will happen and you need to be ready for it.

Good luck on your journey. Keep us posted.

What type of results have you achieved in your 9 years training?

@yubs

I know that SARMs are relatively unstudied (compared to AAS) but do you have any thing to site, maybe a medical study? As I said most sources I’ve come across have mentioned suppression rather than the latter.

But seriously though thank you very much for your help!

@kd13

Great question, I started training back when I was 14 years old at a sports academy, 2.5 hrs of training per day for 2 years. Boxing/ Kick Boxing Daily with Swimming in the afternoon, if we under preformed we were punished lol (kinda like a correctional school in a way) I was swimming 64 laps of a 50 metre pool in an hour, nothing amazing but I was training to work at a beach with 3.5 metre waves, power was more of an objective. Finishing up at 16 years old.

I took a years layoff and I started at 64kg gaining now up to 107kg.

My lifts are not impressive, and my body fat is too damn high currently, that is the reason for the body recomp. I was never strong in the weights room but have had awesome cardio endurance. I’ve always been quite very weak for my size, that is one of the reasons I’m in the Gym in the first place.

Just being honest, I find heaps of people don’t say the truth on forums and I can’t be fucked with that shit tbh.

Deadlift 160kg
Bench 90kg
Barbell Row 100kg
Squat 100kg

Embarrassing even posting them!

My chest has always been rather shit same with my triceps so that has been a journey, but my back and calves are fairly large.

I wouldn’t be embarrassed by your lifts. That’s where you are, and if you don’t like it you can work to make improvements, and if you’re not going for all-out strength then you tailor your workouts and diet around your goals. I don’t think it’s fair to judge a man by the numbers unless his goal is to be judged by numbers. Some guys don’t care as much about aesthetics and they go for pure strength. God bless them. That’s what they want. As long as you’re working towards a goal and you’re dedicated to it then you hold your head up high and you keep pushing ahead.

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Thanks for the honesty, I know it’s not what you want to hear but I think you can achieve what you want to achieve without taking the risks your thinking about taking.

At your current strength level I would say you could easily make massive progress without taking anything. Consistency and the right program mixed with better nutrition.

And if you can’t get to lowish body fat without using these substances then I can’t see them making a massive difference. Again consistency will power and the right program.

Just my opinion but the risks are not worth the rewards. Put your time and effort into figuring out what is wrong with what your currently doing.

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