T Nation

Saliva Test For Test Levels?

Okay, I purposely lowered my test for my blood test, got them around 102. The doctor was astonished at the level and wanted to get me on a Test regiment ASAP.

He went ahead and gave me 250mg of test cyp injection plus HCG to administer, for after I take the take-home saliva test, which he claims in the most accurate way to test.

The saliva tests is checking for: Estradiol, Progesterone, Testosterone


Is the saliva test accurate?

Is there any way to alter the numbers?

What if I had my girlfriend take it?

I know the estradiol will be through the roof, but the others should be bottomed out, right?

Thanks, guys.

Actually it is not necessarily the case that a woman’s estradiol level will be lower than a man’s at a given time. In the follicular phase, half of women will be within the normal range for men, and some will be at the bottom end of the normal range for men. Estrogen levels fluctuate a lot.

Somewhat along the same lines, though not relevant to your girlfriend I would assume, postmenopausal women actually have estrogen lower than the bottom end of the normal range for men. I mention it only because I suppose that most would not have guessed so, and it is interesting.

The rest of your post and concern, just as a matter of preference I’ll leave to others. Surely not everyone should tackle every topic.

Thanks for the response.

Anyone else have any input on how off the numbers would be? Since he is an anti-aging doctor, I’m assuming he’s looking for an excuse to put me on a weekly program.

Well, I don’t mind adding that the reason I didn’t want to go further into it is that the entire idea is completely off and beyond salvaging. There was no easier way to say that so rather than do so I left it alone.

While I didn’t think of it last night when posting, if you just the injection within the last day or so, the preferable thing would be to take your salivary sample immediately, as levels will not yet have risen to maximum.

He’s an anti-aging doctor, so pretty much anything to justify giving out meds.

The shot he gave me was to be taken AFTER the saliva tests were completed.

I guess I’m looking for a specific answer to a question. If I mix 1/4 of my PRE-SHOT saliva with 3/4 of her saliva, scientifically how will they know? They are not doing a DNA test. I know some of the numbers will be far off, but honestly, I think he could care less. He only wants justification for giving out medication.

Of course the testosterone levels will be low (which is good), progesterone will be normal unless she’s pregnant (bad way to find out), and estradiol will be very high (justified by my massive bitch tits). But by mixing some of my saliva will help offset these numbers a little.

I’m not looking for someone to pick and choose my morals, Bill. Like previously stated, most doctors are only looking for something to justify their diagnosis, rather deceitful or not.

My post above doesn’t look like what you responded to because I didn’t like the way it probably sounded, but the edit took forever to go through despite my doing it maybe 30 seconds after the above post.

I’m not out to criticize your morals: it’s just the personally I’m most offended not simply by someone lying to me but lying to me in a way that presumes I’m a complete fool. That was my point: what did the doctor do to deserve being lied to as if he were a complete fool.

I really should not have bothered answering the question at all. I can see why no one else did. It was beyond hope. Not just because of assuming the doctor is a fool but just the entire scheme is much less than half-baked. I’m sorry but that’s about all I can make of it. I still don’t see a way of replying that actually addresses the matter that doesn’t make the whole thing sound screwed up and result in a likelihood of the reply being disliked for that reason. So it would have been better left alone.

I’ll let you know how it works out. He already has me coming in for another 250mg cyp injection on Fri., I assume it will pan out.

I’m only asking for a scientific reason as to why it will not work. We could debate all day long on each other’s choices and avenues on obtaining AAS. I personally think acquiring it through a doctor, lying or not, is safer than obtaining from an UG lab from an ever growing shady business. Most anti-aging clinics hand out test like aspirin. Again, it’s not about me assuming he’s a complete fool. He is only looking for a reason to justify his actions.

I tried the honest route, Bill. Even though I had naturally low test levels, with Hypogonadism, I couldn’t find a doctor who would prescribe because of my age and profession. After trying 5 doctors, I finally tried the route of an anti-aging clinic. He gave me an injection to take home on my first visit.

So, Bill, I’m not trying to be an asshole, but please scientifically explain how I’m off base.

Because having the blood test already, the doctor is going to already have a basis to know that your free testosterone in the saliva test is going to be some approximate amount that is reasonable.

Unless you want to do something fairly pointless like make a 90/10 mixture that is mostly your stuff, you are going to wind up making something that is an obvious fraud.

A salivary test is NOT going to reveal a substantially lower free testosterone number than a recently done blood test. Especially not after just getting an injection of testosterone.

He’s probably been around the block a few times and knows that after an injection such as he just gave you, from your starting point your results is going to be between here and there.

The whole thing is just assuming he’s a complete fool.

And no he doesn’t need a fraudulent salivary test to be able to continue providing you with testosterone and HCG.

Also with regard to estrogen, depending on the particular woman and time of the month her estrogen levels might be 6 or 7 times beyond the normal range for men. So if you mix much of hers in there, now (if we were to assume he didn’t realize you were treating him as a fool) what is that supposed to do with his efforts to help you medically?

You’ve found someone that wants to help you and you want to just go completely off the wall in how to fake results. It’s up to you, go ahead.

But let’s say that you’ve decided that actually this was a bad idea.

If I understand correctly and you mean he gave you the injection to take home, if you haven’t taken it yet, then why not take only half of it prior to the salivary test, and do that test the next day. If he expresses surprise that the increase was so low, you could ask if he thinks the shot had time to take effect yet: you did the salivary test the next day. If he knows about the pharmacokinetics of it he would understand that would result in less effect.

Or if you’re convinced your testosterone is naturally nowhere near as bad now and you haven’t taken the shot, then why not just do the salivary test without the shot.

On re-reading your first post: It seems I misunderstood in thinking that he had wanted the salivary test to be after your shot of testosterone.

It’s weird that he would want a salivary test to confirm the blood test. It would make a lot more sense to use it as a post-test to get some idea of the effect of the injection.

But supposing he actually meant this as a pre-value, why not then follow the same protocol that gave your low blood test value and do that for your salivary test and actually use your own saliva?

That would be the most sure-fire thing.

Thanks for the explanation, Bill.

I would of altered the saliva test in a similar manner, but the doctor required it to be postmarked for today, therefore, I didn’t have a significant amount of time to alter my levels. It took 3 weeks for me to get my blood testosterone levels down to the 100’s and that particular test was given 2 months ago. I very much need the saliva test results to be similar to my blood test to make the blood test look accurate.

I understand and respect your thoughts on the issue. The saliva test threw me off and I needed a rapid response.

I assumed that without a DNA test, or any other tests besides the 3, that labs have no way of distinguishing the difference of the two saliva’s. Worst thing can happen is the test is inconclusive, so he makes me retake it. By that time, my levels will be elevated by the two shots he would of already given me.

I now understand your point better. I don’t see a good way to do it with a non-menopausal or follicular phase (if she’s not higher than average estrogen) woman’s saliva without it probably being just whacky or alternately too diluted to do anything.

Unlike the case with blood, it seems likely to me it could be diluted with water say 50/50 and this might not be rejected by the lab (don’t know) and would cut the T levels in half anyway. Your estrogen figure would probably not become unreasonably low and I suppose progesterone would at least have a good chance (don’t know) of being unreasonable.

It might be too late, hopefully not. Or if you already did the mix, then hopefully you got lucky and your girlfriend was follicular phase and you didn’t go overboard in the mix.

I went ahead and submitted the test because it had to go out today. The sample consists of 80/ her saliva, and /20 my pre-injection saliva.

The results should be back in less than a week, I will let you know his prognosis.

Since he’s already given me one injection, and plans on giving me another one tomorrow, then I’ll have no problem giving him my real saliva from here on out. He said he would like to see my levels maintained over 1000.

Question: He includes HCG with every injection. Is this a good idea? Will this keep my normal production turned on?

It will keep normal production from the testes going.

It doesn’t keep LH normal, but the assumption when doing HRT with injected testosterone is that that is a lost cause anyway. (Might not be, but that is the assumption.) The injections would suppress it anyway.

And hopefully you will be lucky as to what time of the month it was for your girlfriend, so the estrogen levels don’t give it away.

Or it could be that The Pill will save the day. Don’t know. Actually I hadn’t considered that before (should have, but it just didn’t occur.)