safe?

Hey, sorry it’s been awhile but I’ve been busy finishing my finals and then was in Puerto Penasco, Mexico this last weekend. Alas I will respond to your questions. Here goes:

The sole reason I responded to you so angrily was for posting under my name. Granted, you said some half-truths (which I’ll address later), nevertheless, it was a childish act that was not relevant. Re-read my response to “teen” and you’ll see that your post was completely out of context.

My advice in regard to the use of steroids, to state it again simply, is that age is only ONE factor. Clearly I don’t approve of 16 year olds using anything androgenic, but an 18 or 19 year old, who has been training and eating good for 2 to 3 years, has low test levels, is completely done growing, near his genetic potential, and has researched the use of steroids, well then I approve of that. A lot of the individuals on the forum as well as the experts who write for T-mag would agree with me. I don’t think it is the “optimal” way to use steroids, but I do know of guys who have been using for 10+ years and started at 20 and have no problems.

“Teen” is asking about 4-AD-EC and MAG-10, which I would suggest over illegal anabolics, and I merely stated both products are safe but 4-AD-EC would provide near the same results as MAG-10 if used at or below genetic limit. This opinion is the same as Bill Roberts. This is the part of the post that you should be addressing. Instead, you decided to be “childish” and post under my moniker and state things about me.

For the record, I am 22, and my name is Scott. I am the same guy. It’s been so long that I forgot I did post about my first cycle but recalling it I think it was mostly positive feedback. The only “negative” feedback, if you can call it that, were people saying “You’re too young”. Those are the individuals that believe age is the only relevant factor. Did I disregard their opinions? No. I took everyone’s opinions into account, people on this forum and in real life. Furthermore, I don’t recall ANYONE saying they had joint problems from using steroids. Plus, how could I base my decision off one person who attributes his joint problems to his use of steroids. I researched for a year before doing my first injection and for that reason I don’t regret my decision. Your response, by posting under my name, included your assumed opinions that I held at the time.

I now only use MAG-10 since I don’t want to risk using illegal steroids being that I am a family man and all. I apologize to you as well for letting this get out of hand somewhat and I hope we can forget about this. I was somewhat surprised you (char-dawg) were the individual to post under my name, being that I respect your opinions on this forum. Hence the reason I responded the way I did. If I forgot to address an issue, which I probably did, please let me know. By the way, I think I Aced my finals. And tomorrow, I start MAG-10. Hallejuah.

Machine’s new motto: “Everything is Individual”

I also agree with char-dawg. The earlier-than-26 ages I gave were under the assumption that the individual is perfectly willing to limit his bone size to what it is already, if he is planning on using aromatizing steroids. (If he is planning on using non-aromatizing steroids or using Arimidex, and monitors blood estrogen levels and keeps them normal, then estrogen-accelerated closing of the epiphyseal plates is not an issue. Clomid BTW is not certain to block that process so is not recommended as a solution. It may act itself as an estrogen in that regard, rather than an anti-estrogen.)

It’s also certainly true that no natural trainer gets close to his natural potential let alone reaches it by age 19. You could not find one 30-40 year old successful natural trainer who will tell you that he is not a lot more muscular than at age 19, even if he started training at age 12 or so. The difference will be quite considerable. No 19-year old should assume he can’t get far past where he already is with natural training. That would be quite false.

Okay, well, let’s take a look at what’s what:

First, I didn’t say anything false about you at all (except that I got your age wrong by a year). All the other stuff, including the part about people writing in with joint problems, is correct. I remember that very clearly, and if you don’t, well, you didn’t remember the original post either, until I reminded you of it. So please believe ne when I say that I’m not making any of this up.

Second, you write “how could I base my decision off one person who attributes his joint problems to his use of steroids”? The guy I listed was just an example, there were others. So the feedback was pretty well split, and there were other valid medical reasons besides the old “you’re just too young”.

Finally, you wrote “an 18 or 19 year old, who has been training and eating good for 2 to 3 years, has low test levels, is completely done growing, near his genetic potential, and has researched the use of steroids, well then I approve of that.” Aside from the obvious fact that “teen” has NOT done his research, this brings us to the crux of the matter, which is that NO 19-year-old is done growing or has reached his/her genetic potential. It’s just not possible. And if you don’t believe me, here’s what Bill Roberts had to say about the matter on another post (“The Age Factor” - look it up):

[Begin Bill Roberts’ quote]: "I also agree with char-dawg. The earlier-than-26 ages I gave were under the assumption that the individual is perfectly willing to limit his bone size to what it is already, if he is planning on using aromatizing steroids. (If he is planning on using non-aromatizing steroids or using Arimidex, and monitors blood estrogen levels and keeps them normal, then estrogen-accelerated closing of the epiphyseal plates is not an issue. Clomid BTW is not certain to block that process so is not recommended as a solution. It may act itself as an estrogen in that regard, rather than an anti-estrogen.)

It’s also certainly true that no natural trainer gets close to his natural potential let alone reaches it by age 19. You could not find one 30-40 year old successful natural trainer who will tell you that he is not a lot more muscular than at age 19, even if he started training at age 12 or so. The difference will be quite considerable. No 19-year old should assume he can’t get far past where he already is with natural training. That would be quite false. " [End Bill Roberts’ quote]

So there you have it.

Sorry about the double-posting here. Had a little trouble with my computer yesterday…


Anyway, the second one is the real post.

There are exceptions to almost every rule. In this case, the rule that no person is at his genetic limit at 19 years old does have exceptions. Was I an exception to that rule? Probably not. But I do think that I was NEAR my genetic limit. Could I have slowly gained a few lbs. of lean mass every year for ten years with proper training, diet, and “natural” supplements? More than likely. Does this mean that I should absolutely NOT use MAG-10? I don’t believe so. Most people like to see results fast and don’t have the patience to wait ten years to see if what they were doing was beneficial. This applies to every person regardless of age. Again, the genetic limit set point is only ONE factor that I believe should be looked at when wanting to gain mass. As I mentioned, testosterone levels, diet, training, training age, etc. are some factors one should also look at.

My question to you is why wait to say 29 years old (ten years after 19) to use MAG-10 or something safe? Do you think being closer to your genetic limit has anything to do with injury with the use of steroids? I don’t. If training is done right and intelligently, injury shouldn’t occur with the sane use of steroids or MAG-10. If it’s not, then injury will occur regardless of how close or far from your genetic limit. I still fail to see your reason for waiting other than it is possible to keep growing without the steroids. Well duh? But if it’s safe and the factors I’ve mentioned are in order (growth plates closed, training and diet good, 18 or so years old, etc.) then I see no reason not to.

You still failed to address the fact that my response to "teen" had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I used steroids and now use MAG-10. All I did was recommend 4-AD-EC over MAG-10 since "teen" is a virgin to androgens. If his diet and training have been good, for two to three years, then I'll give him the go ahead. Your opinion may differ but that still doesn't explain your response.

Machine’s Motto: “Everything is Individual”

Okay, fair enough. Here’s my response:


You said, “From my experience, there is no need to wait until a specific age if you are done growing.” My points: First, he’s not done growing. Bone plates aren’t closed, mximum height may not even have been reached, genetic limit certainly hasn’t. No 18-year-old is “done” growing. Second, as for your experience, it’s limited to 2-3 frickin’ years! Do you know what’s going to happen to you in another five? Of course not, because you haven’t gotten there yet. Maybe nothing will happen, and maybe something will. But at this point, you don’t know. Thus the “crap-shoot” comment.


You said: “I started using androgens at 19 and I stand by my decision.” Meaning: it’s safe, go ahead. Right? My point is that, again, while it MAY be safe, you don’t really know. Where are the studies that show teenagers taking androgens, being tracked for 20 years and then turning out all right? There aren’t any, so far as I’m aware.


You said, “It’s all individual and as long as you pay attention to diet and training first, which you said you do, then I don’t see a problem.” My point is that it’s NOT individual, that NO 18-year-old is done growing and therefore IMHO shouldn’t be using androgens.


You said: “In terms of safety, both products are safe as long as you follow the recommendations.” Again, you don’t know this for sure. And neither does anyone else.


Finally, I think that there’s a whole 'nother aspect to this whole debate that you’re not addressing at all, and that is the “non-body” benefits that you get from weightlifting. (I’ve listed some of them above.) Using androgens before you really need to robs you of these because you get rewarded (for a while) no matter how you train or what your diet looks like. In other words, you don’t learn anything.


Plus, there’s a very real chance of getting psychologically hooked on them. You do one cycle, get some nice results, decide to do another one, then two, then ten… You know how it goes. So. I’ve addressed your points; how about you address these two?


Oh, and just so we’re on even ground here, my real name is Chris Chardon. Do you remember me from your original posts, waaaay back when…?

Yes I remember you from back in the days.

I do agree that if he is NOT done growing then no way should he use any androgen.

My experience is limited in terms of androgen use but I will still give my opinions. A 28 year old who has only used for a couple years would be in the same boat as me then. I see your point in valuing a more experienced androgen user over a less experienced user.

Inferring that I meant it was safe for “teen” to use 4-AD-EC or MAG-10 because I don’t regret MY decision is not correct. This is because I did all the research and took the right measures. “Teen” can make his own choice and live with it. Obviously the most safe choice would be to use neither product. 4-AD-EC and MAG-10 are probably equally safe.

It almost seems like you don’t think anything is safe if it doesn’t have 20 years of research behind it. Creatine doesn’t have 20 years behind it. Tribulus doesn’t. MAG-10 and 4-AD-EC are safe alternatives to steroids and I will recommend them to people considering androgen use. Like many products, they have 20 years of research behind them but pharmologically speaking, they’re safe. They don’t aromatize, no water gain, no shutdown of the hpta, no needle issues, etc. You agree?

I agree with the “non-body” benefits of androgen use. It can very psycologically addictive. Especially with androgens that work by the CNS. But this doesn’t change my opinions on the age requirement for using androgens.

Lastly, if MAG-10 or something similar is used for only 1/3 the time, then you cut down on the fact that gains come no matter how you train or eat. This is what I recommend doing.

Can we put this to rest all ready Chris?

Machine’s Motto: “Everything is Individual”

Do not take steroids if your a teenager,you dont stop growing until in you 20’s lots of peopel grow alot during college. In the current episode of SI trevor hoffman was 5’6 at 18 and grew to be 6"0,people also fill out more.At 18 you will probally get taller and fill out more of your frame even without steroids it is not worth it.

Sure, we can put it to bed. We’ve both made our respective points (probably exhausively). What I wanted to do was have a good discussion that people can search for when this type of question comes up again, as it undoubtedly will. If “teen” is still reading this thread, I’d REALLY like to hear what he has to say about the points that have been raised, as well as any other informed opinions one way or the other…


Anyway, nice “talking” with you again after such a long time!