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would 4-ad-ec be safer for teens than mag-10?

teens don’t need to be on this stuff. Just eat and train properly. but from what’s been written the answer seems like a yes. laters pk

thanks for the advice pk. i understand that the overwhelming majority of teens don’t need to be on this stuff, but i am not 13 (i’m 18) and unlike most teens i actually pay attention to diet and training, and due to t-mag i pay more attention to diet than training. under these circumstances, would 4-ad-ec be safe for my almost developed body? if it isn’t fully safe, would it at least be safer than mag-10 or androsol? again, thanks.

Bill Roberts has stated that 4-AD-EC is safer then Mag-10. i’m glad to hear that you have discipline. keep up the good work. as far using the stuff, i would wait until you hit a plateau where you were not able to grow naturally. remember that you are still in a growth stage. You got a couple of more years. I started supplementing after i graduated college. laters pk

I recall Bill saying that 4-AD-EC by itself would provide the same benefit probably as MAG-10 would if the person had never used either product or ingredients before and wasn’t way past their genetic limit. From my experience, there is no need to wait until a specific age if you are done growing. I started using androgens at 19 and I stand by my decision. It’s all individual and as long as you pay attention to diet and training first, which you said you do, then I don’t see a problem. In terms of safety, both products are safe as long as you follow the recommendations.

I am also 18 and I wonder if the use of 4-ad-ec will stunt my growth (fuse my growth plates together)? Of course, assuming I have any growth in me left.

Actually, what I should have said was that I started using androgens at 19 and now I’m all of 21, so I don’t really have any idea about whether they’ve done me permanent harm or not. I decided to take a risk, but let’s face it: it’s a crap-shoot. I posted here when I was thinking about doing my first cycle and got a lot of feedback both positive and negative. Some guys wrote to say that they did steroids, etc. and later (like when they were at the ripe old age of 28) developed permanent joint problems that they attributed to the drug usage. Others said that they were fine. I decided that I wanted the additional muscle so much that I chose to risk the possible consequences and take steroids. Did I do the right thing? Well, so far so good. But as for the future…well, my crystal ball seems to be broken at the moment, so there’s no telling. Maybe I’ve done myself permanent damage. Maybe I’ll be fine. No one really knows…

Signed: Not Really “Machine” (but then you figured that out already, right?)

To the Ignorant Coward: Was there a specific reason you responded to my reply to teen? Do you have some personal vendetta with me? Your post was ignorant and cowardly. You are ignorant in that you have decided how you feel about androgens and steroids and nothing can change that. Your right, everyone else is wrong mentality. You are cowardly because you did not reveal your name but chose to ‘pretend’ to be me. I fail to see how you make all those senseless conclusions from my statements “From my experience, there is no need to wait until a specific age if you are done growing. I started using androgens at 19 and I stand by my decision.” You know that I’m 21 how (which I’m not)? When did I post about my first cycle (never)? Positive and Negative feedback (huh)? What?!?! I mean, you created a good story about me, but it’s completely false. From the above statements, a smart individual would see that I was merely expressing an opinion that the age of the person is only one factor when determing whether to use steroids. I don’t believe in a set rule like no 19 year olds should consider the use of steroids. There are many other factors one should consider. I’m not alone on this opinion either (refer to Cy Willson’s articles). I stand by my decision to use androgens means that I don’t regret it. I researched for a year, I was done growing (plates closed), I had low-normal T levels, and I was near my genetic limit. Since I’m careful and only on 1/3 of the year, and now only using MAG-10, I don’t see a problem with my choice. If you disagree with the use of steroids or MAG-10 then get off this site chump. That or just shut your trap son. What’s your beef coward? If you fail to respond, I’ll assume you crawled back in that shit hole you emerged from.

theres a bit too much mommy and daddy preaching on these boards. its like harm reduction vs. prohibition. Reality vs. ideals and illusions

I would really like to hear Bill Roberts’ input in this situation.

Machine, I was assuming that you’re the guy named Scott who posted here about two years ago (who also occasionally posted as “Machine”). This guy was 19 at the time, argued that he had reached his “full growth potential”, did some research about his bone plates, etc. In other words, he sounded an awful lot like you, so I figured it was the same person.

Now, if you are in fact a different “Machine”, then I apologize for making a false assumption. But if not, then I stand by what I’ve said here, and I challenge you to (a) tell us all how old you are and (b) if you’re only a year or three out from having used steroids at 19, how it is that you can tell someone with utter certainty that a teenager is safe using them (or anything else, for that matter).

No, I don’t have a vendetta with you. What I do object to is people spreading false or otherwise unprovable information, especially on this board, and especially to the younger people here. If you look carefully at my post, all I said was, “It’s too soon to know for sure what the effect of my [i.e. your] usage was.” That’s it. So I reverse the question: what is it in my answer that pisses you off so much?

Finally, Bill Roberts HAS posted on this issue numerous times, saying varying things to varying people as the situation warrants. One thing he has been consistent about, though, is that NO ONE has reached his or her full growth potential at 19. Do a search on the steroid board if you don’t believe me.

Machine - Just bumping in case you missed my last post. Still want to know if you’re Scott or not.


Well? Still waiting…

Well, as you can see Machine hasn’t responded, despite ample opportunity and having posting on other threads recently. So I hope you can see that the stuff I said in the other posts was, in fact, true. He called me out pretty forcefully, I came out, and he vanished from this thread. Who’s the REAL Machine? I think a better question is, who’s the REAL coward?

Just to set the record straight, I am not against androgen usage per se. But I do believe that anyone who is 18 (or 19) probably shouldn’t use them. Why? Well, they’re not necessary at that point, and as Tim said in his last BTS, the rule of thumb is to wait to use them until they are necessary. So that means, generally, that you should be about 26 years old AND have at least 4-5 years’ worth of proper training under your belt. If you’re lacking one or the other (much less both), you need to face the fact that you’re basically just looking for fast gains without putting in the time.

Not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that, but it seems kind of silly to me. The benefits of the weightlifting/bodybuilding lifestyle go way beyond just having a nice physique. You get knowledge, discipline and stick-to-it-iveness out of it as well…if you do it right. So why short-change yourself?

It’s like always using a calculator to do math. Sure, you’ll get the right answer, but if you’ve never learned how to work the numbers yourself, you don’t understand what’s going on. So long as calculators are around, maybe this doesn’t bother you. But what do you do when you have to take an SAT or something and they don’t let you use them? Or when your kid comes to you and says, “But why does it work that way?” See what I mean? (Of course, once you’ve learned the math in the first place then sure, use the calculator all you like. No harm done.)

So no one’s “preaching” here, and no one’s trying to make you do something one way or the other. Just trying to balance the picture a little bit, and maybe get you to think about things from a slightly different perspective.

And if anyone really objects to that, well… All I can say is, it’s kind of strange.

I absolutely love these kids who come on here and think they know everything. I went to school for 4 years in ex phys and Ive got kids who read a couple issues of flex and they think theyre endocrinologists. Or they read a book and they think theyre Charles Poliquin. Dont mind me char dog. IM just tryin to start trouble.

What if you have used prohoromones at an early age on numerous occasions. Does that mean that since the growth probably has been stunted that you might as well use them responsibly from then on or lay off them and hope that maybe you might have a couple inches left?

Char-dawg: “Stick-to-it-iveness”??? I like it. I’m taking it.

To Instrument: Yeah, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing…

To Iaz: To tell you the truth, I have no idea. I suppose that it would be predicated partly on how old you are now (i.e. over 26 and you’re done growing anyway), but in general I would come off the androgens, get on Tribex and M, and see if I could get my system back to normal. Of course, this is assuming that some damage has been done in the first place, which may not be the case. My whole point above was that no one knows one way or the other. Maybe you’re fine, maybe you’re not. If I were you and were worried about the matter, I’d go to a doctor and have some tests run. Then you’ll have a better idea about what (if anything) you need to do.

To Houdini: Feel free, bro. Take it away!

I did see your response and once I saw the thread bumped, however, I have been studying my ass off this past week for finals, while doing a cycle of MAG-10. I have responded here and there to threads mostly b/c I am addicted to the site but did not respond to you b/c I knew it would take too much time. Since you care so much, check my recent posts and you’ll notice that they are not very long, hence, they didn’t take me very long to write. My apologies for not responding and your lack of patience. To clear things up, you are right about my name being Scott. Congratulations on caring so much and tracking every message I’ve posted. However, you are wrong about some things, and your 1st retaliation to my post is still absurd. I will respond again with more about what I think after my last final tomorrow night. Can you wait that long char-dawg?

Machine, I can wait as long as it takes. Take care of your finals first; they are obviously more important than any thread on this board. And good luck with them.

However, before you post again, just think about something. All I said in my first post was that you don’t (can’t, actually) know for sure what the ultimate effect of your androgen usage is going to be because you’re not far enough out from it. (If you’re not 21, you’re not far from it.) That’s all.

I used your name and a little bit of sarcasm to make my point. If either of those things really upset you that much, well, I apologize. But I think that your response to my post was a bit over the top. “Crawled out of a shit-hole”?!? C’mon.

Anyway, I haven’t been tracking your posts in particular, I just have a good memory. (And in this case, I can back it up with thread references if need be.) If you’d like to have a reasoned debate about the pros and cons of androgen usage among teenagers, I’ll certainly be happy to oblige. Among the other stuff that I remember, one is that you’re a pretty smart guy. So no problem. But if all you want to do is trade sarcasm and insults back and forth, we probably both have better things to do with our time.