Saddam Is a MAN!

[quote]Kuz wrote:
(Eastern European nations under Soviet control, China today, any of a number of African dictatorships, etc.)

I think that some of those countries may eventually choose to install strong but democratic governments[/quote]

You may want to update your history books. :slight_smile: Eastern European countries are no longer dictatorships under Soviet control. They freed themselves through a series of revolutions (or through more peaceful means, depending on the case) about a decade and a half ago.

I’ve been there at the time, so I guess I should know.

I think that everyone including Saddam understands that the purpose of the court is to present a facade for convicting and eventually executing Saddam. But it appears to me that Saddam is somewhat holding his own and putting up a good fight. I would go so far as to say that he makes the court look weak and sort of like a Mickey Mouse operation. In any court in the U.S. they wouldn’t let him or anybody else act disrespectfully or get into fistfights with bailiffs.

[quote]Tank53 wrote:

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Very good stuff.

[quote]Kuz wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Kuz:

I certainly don’t disagree with you at all…

It just seems that dictatorial power and control is “respected” more in this part of the World.

Mufasa

Mufasa - I think there may be something to that potentially, but that could be due more to the fact that they really have not had a lot of democratic opportunities in that region. Heck, the only country in that region that [i]is[/i] democratic is Israel.[/quote]

It is a totally different culture and way of doing things compared to us. When we were initially trying to hold elections in our area(Tikrit,) a few of the Generals were in back of the aircraft discussing the problems, and one of the biggest was that the Iraqi’s had no concept of democracy. When they asked them to elect a leader, they’d point to the wealthiest individual in the town and say he was their leader(actually sounds like they understood the underpinnings of democracy well in advance.)

But when they were told they had to have an election, everyone would just vote for that guy anyway. This happened on a few occasions.

i for one think he is a comedic genius. and to pre-empt some fag with some reply about torture, yes i think torture is funny.

[quote]Tank53 wrote:
Instead of getting out to consoul the survivor of the auto accident, the killer would run for their life. The survivor would then go to chase down the killer to try and bring honor back to their friend. That would be by ending the life of the person that ended the friends.

Its not about mercy, its about honor. To do nothing at all would be the same as saying the person who died had no value to you. To make that person pay for what they had done would show that you respected and honored the one who had died.
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I dont understand. How honorable is it to run away from an accident after you’ve just killed someone?

I’m assuming it’s because he’s afraid of the other person in the car, but still?

I think this post gives some interesting insight into Iraqi politics:

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005/12/baghdad-county.html

Baghdad county

Bill Roggio’s last two posts from Iraq, Patrolling Haqlaniyah ( http://inbrief.threatswatch.org/2005/12/patrolling-haqlaniyah/ ) and On the Offensive in Ramadi ( http://inbrief.threatswatch.org/2005/12/on-the-offensive-in-ramadi/ ) describe a situation in which military operations have become a handmaiden to politics. Not American politics primarily , but Iraqi politics. For a sense of what that kind of politicking looks like Iraq the Model’s synopsis at Pajamas Media ( http://www.osm.org/site/story/2005127omarelectionoroundup ) is close to the best. Basically, the various tribes, religious and ethnic groups (even the Christians) are maneuvering for votes: including, surprise, surprise, the Sunni insurgents. “The new and interesting thing in this election is the large-scale participation of Sunni parties for the first time. These parties think they have a good chance to win many seats in the parliament.”

So it is less and less surprising that suicide attacks, such as the blast in a bus killing 30 people ( News: Breaking stories & updates - The Telegraph ) or the one which killed nearly the same number at a police academy ( http://news.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=us/6-0&fp=4398301a52eebdcc&ei=qR2YQ_eMEK7caeb3yLMO&url=http%3A//www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php%3Fstory_id_key%3D8306&cid=1102813326 ) involve Iraqis on Iraqis. It’s no longer war, properly understood, but politics Middle-Eastern style. (BTW the word “Iraqis” is consciously used knowing it conceals a multitude of differences. For a discussion on how Arabs aren’t all the same see Michael J. Totten: http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001010.html ) The purely military war in Iraq is over and America has won. The US casualty count carefully kept at Global Security ( U.S. Casualties in Iraq ) has never gone back to its 2004 levels and (in my view) probably never will. But though the politics may be bloody, the dynamics of the electoral arena described by Iraq the Model suggest something quite revolutionary has taken place:

But more important than all of this is the fact that in these few years, we have witnessed the birth of a sensibility that was buried for decades – Iraqi patriotism. This sense is currently represented in three political alliances/parties that ignore the ethnic and sectarian issues in their platforms. Relatively speaking, they are looking at Iraq as a whole.

Factions are struggling for control of Iraq through the ballot. Assisted by bombs, intimidation, bribery, and disinformation it’s true, but through the ballot. In this atmosphere, the carnival trial of Saddam Hussein almost makes sense, right down to the surreal presence of his defense attorney Ramzi Clark (spelling courtesy of Hammorabi).
Commentary

Victory when it came, was both greater and less; more partial and more complete than expected. It did not take the European form of parades down the Champs Elysee, followed by a return to old and establish ways of governance. What the destruction of the Ba’athist regime did was reanimate long suppressed local and ethnic interests and channel them into competition through the ballot box – with the occasional recourse to violence. Tremendous forces have been unleashed which critics of the war will point to as signs of an incipient civil war, but which supporters of OIF will describe as a newly liberated society feeling its way forward.

Whether OIF has wrenched events in the Middle East from their old tracks and put them on a better route remains to be seen. What is less debateable is that OIF has subtly changed America. The Armed Forces have acquired capabilities they never had before. Bill Roggio in Patrolling Haqlaniyah ( http://inbrief.threatswatch.org/2005/12/patrolling-haqlaniyah/ ) describes three-tour veterans who can talk politics with Iraqis. For many individual Americans Iraq is now something less than home and something more than a foreign country. For America as a whole, one thing that no politician will dispute in 2008 is that aside from being a European and Pacific power – which it has been since the end of the Second World War – the US is now a part of the strategic landscape of the Middle East and Central Asia.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Mufasa,

At times it seems they are teetering, but I think the main key to their survival is the army. The army is secular, professional, and has let it be known that it wouldn’t brook any Islamist uprisings. If the army were corrupted I think the country would fall quickly.

[/quote]

That’s not necessarily a good thing. The army has maintained Ataturk’s secular vision on several occasions, but it has probably retarded Turkish democratic growth in the process.

[quote]wek wrote:
Tank53 wrote:
Instead of getting out to consoul the survivor of the auto accident, the killer would run for their life. The survivor would then go to chase down the killer to try and bring honor back to their friend. That would be by ending the life of the person that ended the friends.

Its not about mercy, its about honor. To do nothing at all would be the same as saying the person who died had no value to you. To make that person pay for what they had done would show that you respected and honored the one who had died.

I dont understand. How honorable is it to run away from an accident after you’ve just killed someone?

I’m assuming it’s because he’s afraid of the other person in the car, but still?[/quote]

Its not about the honor of the person running away. Its about the fact that if they stuck around, the person that struck the other vehicle would be killed. They run to save their own life.

I cannot say for certain why its this way and you make a good point. I never lived in the culture myself. This is how my friend chose to explain to me the honor versus mercy value systems.