SA22C TRT HCG Thyroid Log

You too bud

It’s interesting when viagra gives you “Thor’s hammer” but no desire to use it.

I get that too. I have a libido just no arousal.

@sa22c

Check this one out its just a copy past

When we administer certain hormones into our bodies, various cells and organs have the ability to sense this. Your body ‘sees’ this increase in testosterone or similar molecules and as a result it can sense that it is in a higher concentration than what would be normal in the blood. As a result, it will shut down its own testosterone production. There are various mechanisms involved in this, but an important one is the cessation in production of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), produced by the pituitary gland. These hormones are required for the testes to be stimulated to produce testosterone but also play a role in sperm production.

From a blood-testosterone aspect this all seems okay to us, sure we have shut down natural testosterone production, but we still have testosterone in us; right? Well, one of the big problems with regards to fertility is that the testes do not work like that. The Leydig cells in the testes produce testosterone when stimulated by LH. Testosterone is released from these cells which are in close proximity to the Sertoli cells. When Sertoli cells see a high concentration of testosterone, they are stimulated to produce and mature sperm by the process of spermatogenesis. A high blood concentration of testosterone will not do this job. Thus administering anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) will shut down natural testosterone production which will in turn slow down (and eventually near turn off) the proper formation and maturation of sperm. Thus infertility is a serious issue with use of AAS.

Classically, HCG has been seen to rectify this problem in males. HCG is an LH analogue – it ‘looks’ like LH to the body and so it can stimulate the Leydig cells to produce testosterone and in turn, hopefully, restore fertility. In some cases this will occur, and many people have had success from HCG therapy relating to infertility. However, the response is not robust and certainly with longer shut-down periods, many often find the use of HCG (even in combination with other post cycle therapy (PCT) medicines such as clomifene (aka clomid) and tamoxifen (aka nolvadex), etc) to not be effective at restoring fertility.

Furthermore, what HCG lacks is to produce the important effects that FSH inflicts upon fertility. FSH, despite its name, is important in male fertility in two main pathways. The first thing it does is to enhance the action of LH, by increasing the amount of protein that will ‘see’ testosterone in the Sertoli cells. The more easily these cells can see testosterone, the more likely spermatogenesis will occur. Secondly, FSH enhances the maturation of sperm by effects on their primary division. These are two important aspects of the role of FSH in the male testes that HCG is not optimal in promoting.

HMG, or its full name Human Menopausal Gonadotropin, bears similarities to HCG in that while HCG is similar to human LH, HMG contains actual LH. Additionally (and crucially) though, HMG also contains purified FSH. The combination of these two hormones perform the effects described above: induction of natural testosterone production by Leydig cells, and subsequent formation and maturation of sperm cells. The result is improved and potentially recovered fertility for the male concerned.

Does HMG really work?
So often we hear about various different drugs and the science for them is sound, but real world evidence is lacking. There are a few studies performed on HMG over the last 25 years, and I would like to draw your attention to two of these studies, pointing out a few key details. The first goes back to 1985 by Ley & Leonard and is an important study as it looks at males who had previously encountered AAS treatment (treatment for low hormone levels including mainly testosterone). This study is available online and I encourage you to read it in more detail than the brief summary I will provide here.

They looked at 13 hypogonadotropic men all of who had undetectable levels of LH/FSH, lower than normal levels of testosterone and azoospermia, thus were unable to currently conceive. Obviously with the low hormonal levels there were issues with libido as well. Furthermore, there were instances where upon testis biopsies, Leydig cells were completely absent. Despite this, all 13 men responded to treatment with HCG with increasing testosterone levels. However, upon addition of HMG treatment, most men saw a further increase in testosterone, sometimes very large. HCG was able to increase sperm counts in most men slightly; however, only upon addition of HMG were sperm counts above ‘normal’ fertility levels (i.e. 20 million per ml) observed. The study indicates that the addition of HMG therapy surpasses any level that HCG treatment could achieve alone. Admittedly this is a particular subset of men who have medical conditions and abnormal hormone issues, but the results are interesting nonetheless.

The second is more recent by Buchter et al in 1998. This is even more interesting from the point of view that it looks at three times the number of cases as the previous study and in a different manner. Again, this study can be found online and I encourage you to read it. The most interesting result you could take away from this study is that in the group of men treated who suffered from hypopituitarism, all 21 treated with HCG/HMG achieved spermatogenesis and a large proportion (81%) was able to successfully achieve pregnancies. The discussion of this article is most interesting as it raises the points from its own study and the literature that many in the field believe that to achieve spermatogenesis and pregnancy in a gonadotropin-compromised individual requires combinational therapy of HCG and HMG. The important point to note is that HCG is not sufficient alone in many cases.

Given the fact that other studies point to HMG increasing endogenous testosterone further than HCG can, as those who have relatively ‘normal’ pituitaries but have compromised their function due to AAS use, it would be wise to consider the use of HMG. This would not only be for purposes of fertility, but to induce natural testosterone levels back to normal values when they have been suppressed. Treatment in this latest study was the use of HCG twice per week at 1000-2500IU per dose (Mon-Fri) and HMG three times per week at 75-150IU (Mon-Wed-Fri). Thus for bodybuilders seeking to regain fertility, spermatogenesis and restore natural testosterone levels but wishing to keep costs down, a weekly dose of the lower ends should be employed for at least one month.

A schedule would involve:
Monday: 1000-1500IU HCG + 75IU HMG
Wednesday: 75IU HMG
Friday: 1000-1500IU HCG + 75IU HMG

Depending on the amount of suppression this cycle may need to be lengthened for a further period. Please note this information is for hypothetical purposes and neither I nor MuscleTalk recommends the use of any prescription medicines without the consultation of a qualified physician.

References:

  • Buchter et al (1998). Pulsatile GnRH or human chorionic gonadotropin/human menopausal gonadotropin as effective treatment for men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism: a review of 42 cases. Eur J Endo 139: 298-303.
  • Ley & Leonard (1985). Male Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism: Factors Influencing Response to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin and Human Menopausal Gonadotropin, Including Prior Exogenous Androgens. J Clin Endo Metab 61(4); 746-752.

Part 2: HMG: The Miracle Fertility Med? A Personal Story and Lesson to Young Bodybuilders

By MuscleTalk Pro-Member Liebow

Many years ago I started off my fitness habits with boxing and of course, like most young people, I was into looking ‘big and hench’. I naively used the AAS dianabol a few times at a very young age (around 15) and loved the great results I achieved, such as strength and size increases. I did not notice many side effects and would just jump back on cycle after some time off with no PCT. So there I was, messing myself up quite a bit without giving it much thought. I came away from boxing to reflect on my discipline and get on with my life – the usual life issues such as my career and marriage, etc.

I missed the weights, and in 2010 I was back in the gym lifting again, this time in a powerlifting fashion. I worked hard, ate everything and progress was steady, albeit slow. In 2011, my first child was born and I found myself slowing in the gym and not growing much more in the size/strength department, causing much frustration and annoyance. This time I now turned to legal pro-hormones as I did not have a source for AAS. Again, I achieved great results but did not run the PCT I was advised to; instead I used an OTC product. I waited two months and jumped back on to yet another cycle. By the end of 2011, I was eager to try injectable meds. This time I listened to sound advice and planned a good testosterone cycle with proper PCT and I felt I recovered fine into 2012. The whole time I was eating everything I saw, however I was not doing much cardio work but focused on lifting very heavy weights. I went back on more AAS, this time using trenbolone with again, great gains. I entered a local novice event and did well. I was on a real high here!

Then my wife approached me during the summer of 2012 wanting to move on with our family and have a second child. At this time, my usual ‘post cycle blues’ were in action. I had no libido, poor mood, no drive and so on. I reassured her though that in a few weeks I would have recovered and it would be fine which built her hopes up. Despite this I failed to recover after these few weeks I promised her. Another few months went by, and still nothing – I felt terrible. So I decided to throw in some proviron to see if that would help with things. It didn’t so I turned to HCG. I tried a range of approaches over the space of four months: 500IU EOD, 500IU ED, 1500IU EOD, and even 2500IU EOD. I even ran clomid alongside the HCG to see if that would help with its fertility properties, but nothing seemed to work.

So, here I was, several months after the ‘talk’ and I am still heavily shutdown. This caused a serious strain on my relationship and my wife blamed the steroids (and rightly so!). We sought advice from the doctor and my wife was perfectly fine. However, the doctor took one look at my parts and said “Ah, I think I can see the problem”. Cutting to the point and saving the embarrassing details, it seems that my sperm production was horrifically suppressed and I had only around 10,000 sperm to one ml of semen. This was further compounded by the fact I had no sex drive.

This news devastated me (and my wife) and I felt as though my relationship was now about to fall apart. All of a sudden, my muscles and hard work over the last few years seemed out of place and plain wrong. I felt that I had been so short sighted and did not once think about how my actions would affect others nor did I consider the long term. I ignored so much good advice about recovery, PCT, time on and time off. I felt like the most moronic failure to myself and to my wife.

So was determined and made a plan to try and rebuild our relationship, as a way to move forward. I decided (bear with me…) to jump back on testosterone enanthate at a low dose. If we could not have more children, we could focus again on our intimacy and each other. I felt there was no point in having no sex drive, so this made sense to me. Now as a desperate last resort, I thought I would try one more medicine to see if it would help with my fertility. I was advised to use HMG and to also come off testosterone to help improve conception chances (but you know how I feel about advice). A few weeks went by, and my libido is back to sky high and once again I am pleasant to be around, and I was starting to not feel as crap as I did previously. A fortnight had passed and the HMG was finished.

Another few weeks pass, and we happen to notice something very peculiar. The wife hadn’t menstruated yet. This can occur at times, so we thought nothing of it. A few days later, I am woken up in bed at 8am by a tearful wife, holding a Clearblue Pregnancy Test. It read ‘PREGNANT 2-3 WEEKS’. I grumbled at this and turned over, with the honest belief that I was still asleep. After a few firm taps of encouragement, I turned over again, and I wasn’t dreaming. Somehow, we had conceived!

Yeah cheers. I understand everything written there. I’m not concerned about fertility or FSH levels.

Just wondering people’s thoughts or experiences on too much hCG and whether it can really desensitise your leydig cells. Read so many different views and experiences. Can’t make my mind up withe way. Everyone is different. BUT. Is it true. Or is it myth. :crazy_face::grin:

I thinks its a myth, lots of people have used hcg for long periods even people who dont use AAS

What are your SHBG and Albumin levels. I reckon if you used Proviron, you’re arousal, sexual desire, would go through the roof.

Look into Proviron.

Yeah. It’s hard to determine. I can’t come to a definitive answer. :frowning:

Is that something your dr prescribed?

I don’t have a Dr for TRT atm. If you read all my first posts you’ll understand my story.

If you have a doctor who’s helping you with this. Talk to him about Proviron.

Research it and show him evidence if he’s skeptical.

I’m going on my mates. Who use alot of gear and they use provirin year round for libido.

I’ve never used it personally. Like I said yesterday. I’ve never had a problem with becoming horny. I’m on the other end of the scale in regard to that. Lucky for me. :+1:

Check it out. What have you got to lose. I have a sneaky suspicion it could work for you.

What are your DHT levels?

DHT and FT are just outside of range in the higher side.

Who knows what’s up. I’ll mention it to my dr.

Nws mannn. G L.

Alrighty so I’ll start with the rest of the thyroid results.

Just to save you scrolling up again. Rt3 was:

A couple of things to note.

RT3 was tested back on the 17th. I’m sure I don’t need to go into detail again as to why these weren’t all done together on the 17th…

My TSH has gone down from 2.0 to 1.5 from the 17th - 28th Sept.

On the May 30th. It was 2.1 & on Sep 17th it was 2.0…
It’s fairly safe to say that’s probably where it has been hovering around for a fair part of my life.

The reason I feel it lowered somewhat to an acceptable level is this:

Now I only took these sporadically from the 17th - 28th Sept.

I didn’t take them the last 3 days leading to the tests on the 28ty but they clearly were still having an effect.

I tried my best not to strew the results. But I had to take some as I was sick of the enlarged, swollen feeling in my neck (thyroid gland area).

To throw more fuel to the fire. I only really started having the enlarged/swollen feeling in my thyroid glands after taking ‘DIM’ for about 1-2 weeks around late August early September.

Taking DIM made me feel awesome for a week. And then it went downhill. So I stopped and returned to normal after about a week.

DIM was clearly ridding too much estrogen for me in the end.

I never really noticed my thyroid play up/feel swollen until then. Irrespective of the numbers I’ve aways received.

So to me it’s clear. Messing with your hormones. Effects thyroid functionality pretty quickly.

110% this all started from incorrect AAS use years ago.

I’ve taken my temperature a few times morning and afternoon. I have not remembered to do it consistently enough to write on here an accurate reading. It would roughly be 36.1 morning temp and 36.8 arvo temps. But I will have to remember to do it for 7 days straight to write a proper reading here. My sisters has roughly been 1.0 above mine. Anyway more on that in the future.

Back to that thyroid medication.

I’ve taken 1 pill a day as directed since the 28th of September.

I have not felt my thyroid feel enlarged/swollen once since taking it. I hope its helping regulate things.

New thyroid tests in 3 months should be able to see if its helping in thst regards. So Hostile I’m not sure if it’s T3 meds per say, but it is thyroid function regulation medicine.

I’m still waiting for DHT results to come in. I’m pretty sure they’ll be in high end of normal range.

And the laboratory states they do not test for Pregnonlone anymore.

So that’s pretty much all the Androgen tests covered as best I can do. Thyroid, CBC all done aswell.

I have bought this in regards to trying to obtain some better gut, liver, digestion function. On top of my already clean eating lifestyle…

I will start taking this from next week and see how it goes.

I can’t remember right now anything else I was going to post up tonight. If I do I’ll post again.

Updates on HCG benefits I will do in a few weeks. That’s all I can remember right now. :+1: Cheers mate =)

ADDED:
I’ve started drinking green tea everyday as well. Can be good for gut flora and to help manage estrogen.

Anastrozole is a strong medication and I’ve already learnt my lesson from it. It messes with all Estradiol as I’m sure you’d know. Not just E2… It can’t be healthy for you that shit. If I can manage E naturally with green supplements, tea and veges like collard greens, kale and brocoli I will be. If they don’t work. I will try DIM again.

Also just putting out there. Its possible the thyroid meds are not doing anything and the extra T from TRT and hCG shots have had an effect on thyroid function??? Cheers

I thought I’d add I’m also drinking green tea and I’ve added red grapes, cabbage n cauliflower to my fruit n vege intake for the effects they can have on controlling estrogen through aromatization.

For anyone reading this in the future that may be in the same situation I was or is looking at this thread for advice.
I’m only concerned with controlling E in regards to to my hCG use.
A dose of 125mg of T a week wouldn’t concern me enough to warrant E management.
BUT
Everyone is different. That’s my personal opinion.

I also know hCG directly aromatases to E. It’s not through the liver. And that most of this is said to happen in the testes. Where an AI is not very effective as it controls T>E through blocking the aromatasing liver enzymes.

My theory I’ll be trying over the next 2 months is too limit/control as best I can all aromatase through the liver and hope it all balances out.

Because one thing I can say for sure. Is that I can feel after my hCG shots, later in the day and the next day etc. That it really drives E up High. There’s no mistaking it.

After I used too much Anastrozole for a week from the 26th Sep - 1st Oct. I completely stopped all E production and I felt like death. I should of payed more attention to your advice @bmbrady77. I did listen but I used too much and it went backwards quick.

I guess it’s worked out positively as now I know the feelings of low Estrodial and how to avoid that and what not. Its helped me get a gauge on everything a bit better and pin point what med is having what effect.

In saying that I only fully recovered from too much Anastrozole around the 9th of Oct. That’s when I felt the best. That was only 2 days ago. I had about 2 days of blissfullnes. And now I can feel the higher E coming back again. Its not concerning me as much as it may sound but I’m just trying to advise anyone in future reading

hCG use is increasing E again but I’m learning to accept it and deal with it. Like I said earlier. I’ll be putting all the new supps and nutrition into practice to see what effect it has.

Living with high T and high E (if not crazy high with sensitive nipples and crazy water gain or gyno), is MUCHHHH better then living with high T but Too low E.

Low E makes life so shit its unbearable. I couldn’t eveh hold a conversation with my family in that time let alone a stranger. It was horrid.

Anyhow I’ve spat all this out without much thought process. I hope it all there. Probably more u wanted to say but that’s enough for now :grin: Cheers.

How much hcg you using mate? It shouldn’t drive estrogen up THAT much?

Sup deadl1ft. If I write my exact protocol of what I’m doing. Alot TRT people would freak out I reckon. I’m doing anything crazy. But I’m not just trying to maintain testes whilst on TRT doses. I’m trying to reverse some atrophy from years ago whilst on TRT doses. So not the norm.

I told myself I’m not writing my exact protocol, as hCG doses continue to change. Once I get results. I will drop it down to 250-500iu twice a week for the remaining 3 months of my TRT doses.

I have kept notes of everything since I started etc.

Your comments stick in my mind still. About others trying what I’m doing, and failing or failing once SERM is ceased. That’s in regards too the course of hCG + T for 3 months & then trying a course of a SERM to see if I can retain higher natural levels then what I started with (well, have been left with from years ago).

Who knows how my body will respond, it may work, it may not. I’m not very hopeful but, I have to try don’t I? I never experienced a SERM, so I have some hope. I repeat SOME.

I do feel it’s a bit counter PRODUCTIVE aswell but. As in 12 weeks I’ll more then likely have myself fully dialed in regarding TRT and e management + my hCG restart. And then I’ll have to stop and try a PCT/course of Nolva.
Who knows bro :roll_eyes:

TRT doses are set. 0.25ml / 62.5 mg Monday and Thursday IM in qauds. That’s sweet. But hCG I’m still playing with. It is set roughly atm at 500iu E2d or E3D.

There has been a dose of 1000 and 750 since starting.

The guy I get my gear off. Not my hCG. So he’s not trying to sell me stuff. (I’m not talking about a street dealer either)
He recommends 2000iu E3D, or if money is an issue 1000iu E3D.

He stated to me it can take up to 6 months, but full recovery is possible.
These are his words.

I have done SOOO MUCH research on HCG doses etc etc etc. Everyone always has different views on doses, it’s effects, how long it lasts, whether an AI has a great effect, whether it causes desensitisation amongst so many other concerns.

After all my research I’m running 500 iu E3D. I can literally feel nuts being stimulated when going to bed the night of injection and the next night. If I feel it’s worn off quick for some reason. Or my nuts just have a dead feeling, I’ll sometimes inject a day early (E2D).

I 110% feel it raise my E. It gives me the same feelings I’ve lived with before starting TRT. Where E was midway but T was so low. (Giving feelings of high E). hCG raises Estrodial quickly. And by 168%.

Regardless of how much it raises E. I’m sticking with 500 iu E3D but I’m considering upping the dose and even the interval soon if I don’t see any further, greater results.

I wasn’t going to write any of this yet, but you’ve drawn it out lol :wink:.

I have seen results so far with hCG.

My flaccid penis is alot thicker and fuller. It does not look dead/ a bit shrivelled when flaccid anymore.

This has never bothered me as when I’m with a chick it’s ready for action. So it’s never concerned me. But I am liking my penis looking normal when flaccid. It feels good for some reason lol.

Anyine that thinks incorrect AAS abuse doesn’t effect your penis aswell as your balls. Is incorrect. It doesn’t effect erection size, but as I said use to look a bit dead and slightly shrivelled flaccid. hCG has fixed this. I assume it’s because the testes are firing with its strong LH mimicked signal. Will it go back this way when hCG is ceased. I don’t know.

I’m regards to the almighty balls.

My nuts are hanging lower. At nighttime they resemble an old fellahs testicles.

There may be a slight, very slight increase in teste size.

Now this is where things still get tricky for me, regarding hCG use.

I feel I may have a problem with retracting testicles more so then teste size.

I’m the morning and midday. My nuts are still like halfway not hung. If that makes sense. They still are not really there. Resembling small nuts or a wrinkly skin look.

This obviously fluctuates throughout the day but it’s ALWAYS alot worse during morning, midday.

Late arvo, they’re hanging. At night time they’re hanging.

They retract during sex. Which is normal but, because mine are either atrophied from years ago or I have a retracting teste problem, they still retract way too far during sex and are still not looking right during morning midday etc.

So my conclusion atm is.

I’m going to continue running hCG E3D at 500iu. But soon, I may move to 1000iu E3D. If I don’t notice a further increase. I may try 2000iu E3D. But for no longer than a few weeks. So all these changes may be happening soon as I’ve already been on HCG for 2 weeks. I don’t want to run it at moderate doses for longer then a few weeks.

When my nuts are hanging low and full. I really don’t feel that anymore amount of hCG will drop them any lower or make then any bigge or fuller.

But as I said they still try to hide during sex and do not hang at all in the morning or midday.

So ill try it for a bit longer and up the dose aswell if need be and see what happens.

Since I’m here typing I might aswell say what I feel about DIM. Well the conclusion I’ve come to on it use.

This is in the same ball park as hCG, regarding information on its uses. So many different opinions.

My conclusion is DIM is an Anti Androgen, an androgen antagonist.

DIM can and will clear estrogen from the body. It can also raise estrogen in over usage. This all depends on your T levels.

DIM can convert one estrogen to another and clear it from the body to help maintain even levels of all Estrodial.

DIM is funny because it will effect everyone differently, depending on all your other hormone levels.

The biggest thing I’ve taken from researching DIM. Is that it competes at the same receptor where DHT is formed, from testosterone.

So DIM can render DHT useless because there will be no DHT. As DIM fighting at the same receptor.

So you must be careful with DIM use at it can kill your DHT. And I know I definitely want DHT pumping through my veins.

So that’s about it. You’ve had a fsir experience with AAS over the years ay deadl1ft? What about hCG? Cheers mate :+1:

Very comprehensive reply mate :joy:.

Well yeah I’ve used hcg a fair bit, early on I may have use higher doses (in the 1-2 thousand from memory) but honestly I cannot remember how it went.
In more recent times I have just run it from the start at 250 eod just to keep things ticking over while I am on cycle. Although knowing what I now do about anastrozole, I was using a lot when I ran these more recent cycles and I experienced no symptoms of low e so maybe the hcg was giving me enough to keep me normal…

It’s tough to know

Hahaha!

I honestly hope other people don’t pipe in on it. Because I cbf talking about it anymore. You were worthy of it mate. Lol.

Yeah well I definitely took too much Anastrozole. About 3 - 3.5 mgs over a week. And it completely fucked me. I recovered after about a week off it. Felt good for a couple of days. Really good. And now I’m starting to feel on the other end of the scale again. I think it comes down to my hCG shots. That’s the way it seems to be working out.

I may have to try anastrozole again but at a small dose of 0.25mg twice per week. Because I really do feel pretty fucked again.

I can’t say if I’m a heavy converter of T>E or if it’s directly from the hCG. But it feels that way.

If I can get the nads to stay plump n low 24/7 I would love to discontinue hCG use for a while as I feel it’s causing my E spikes and mood changes.

That’s about it bra. That’s where I’m at :grin:.

1 Like

Bro-ken rec-ord…

Brother please listen to this…STABILIZE. It’s almost painful reading your updates. I feel really bad for you. It’s got to be hell with all those highs and lows right?

You’re changing way too much, way too quickly. You have no idea what is causing what. I may be way off base here, but I’ll try one last time…

Try this…
Stick with TRT at your current dose (62.5mg twice a week) for 6 weeks. See how you feel. If you feel fine (other than your unhealthy emotional attraction to the looks of your nutsack lol), great. If not, adjust TRT dose up/down a tiny bit and wait another 6 weeks. Repeat if necessary. The goal is to try and find the best ratio possible of good Test levels vs E2. This can take a few tweaks over time.

Then move on to your nutsack…

Once TRT is stable, start adding HCG at 250iu twice a week for 6 weeks. Assess the protocol and then change a tiny amount if needed up/down and wait another 6 weeks.

Estrogen is going to fluctuate wildly if you keep changing too quickly. It takes 6 weeks for your body to stabilize everything that it can after a change. That’s why you have to dial in one thing at a time to see where your body lands on a particular dose. You have your body playing catch up constantly bro and you’re never going to feel good for more then a day or so if you keep it up the way you’re approaching it now.

Think about a rope swinging from a tree. You feel great when the rope is hanging naturally straight down. When you change something, you are in affect adding or taking away a weight at the end of the rope and then the rope starts swinging. It’s trying to reach a state of rest where you feel good, but you have to let that momentum calm to get it there. If you change something (start swinging the rope again), it never reaches rest. Sure you feel good every time the rope reaches the bottom, but it’s got so much momentum that it can’t stay there but just a short time and then it’s on the way to the other side. You just get these small pockets of feeling good then it’s off to the races again. The more weight you add or take away (ie the more things or the more the amount you change at one time), the wider the rope swings. If you will stabilize, the you can let the rope rest and stay in the good zone. Hope that analogy makes sense.

This is why I didn’t want to right any updates until further on down the road. Lmfao. As soon as I seen your name replied. I’m like oh. Here we go :wink::joy: Hahaha.

You’re a legend mate. Honestly :+1:. I have all the time in the world for your advice.

You have to remember. I’m not just starting out on TRT as you are for example.

The TRT shots atm are not of great concern to me.

Your approach to TRT is 100% correct in your position.

I’m only doing this for 3 months (roughly) and then trying a PCT for the first time in my life after AAS abuse 10 years ago. In an attempt to see if I get my natural levels higher then where they were before I started.

If this is unsuccessful or returns to my original (newfound after AAS abuse) homeostatis once the SERM is ceased. Then I will have no choice but to take up TRT full time.

That’s whey your approach is 100% warranted.

Once starting this 3 weeks ago. I am only concerned with hCG and trying to see what effect possible effects it can have on my nuts.

If the issues I caused years ago with my nuts cannot be undone after a decent attempt with hCG. Then I can live with that knowing I tried and a small dose twice a week while on TRT to keep them where they are is 100% right as you said.

hCG doses for returning shrunken testes and maintainung testicular size on TRT are in 2 completely different leagues.

hCG raises Estradiol dramatically in moderate to high doses. Even smaller doses with some people.

Like I said before where I mentioned you. The positive I can take by crashing my E from too much anastrozole, is now I know what those feelings are like. I should never have too experience that again being more mindful of Arimidex’s potency now.

I’ve been living with low T for so long and moderate E. I know the feeling very well.

A week after the arimidex were off. I felt better. Good for a couple of days. Outstanding. Then after my last hCG shots. 3 and 1 day ago. I can start to feel the old feelings of a higher E TO T ratio from e2 spikes.

I fully get where you are coming from with my SOUGHT OF micro managing ways atm.

I really do feel I need a small dose of anastrozole once or twice a week again now its all worn off. It would be the same time every week. To see if its going to have a positive effect on me again. I can pretty much assure you it will. To you this may sound crazy.

But with hCG usage, it’s pretty much a must. So can you see that I am starting to stabilise in regards to my TRT and AI use?

I will definitely be upping the hCG dose if I don’t see more improvement with in 2 weeks to the gonads. I habe no choice but to try. By that stage i would of been able to tell if my new anastrozole doses are having the desired effects.

I understand upping the hCG could throw that out of whack again but it is what it is. Like u said. I have no choice.

I can’t take the 6 week change protocol approach on here, like people advised you and too others. It doesn’t fit my situation. I know you feel I change one thing, then feel the effects, then change another before I’ve felt the effects of that and so on. And continue to leave myself in a hole of unknown. This was true 2 weeks ago. But its honestly not the case now. 2 weeks ago it was. But it is not now.

PS: I need to re read your analogy. Because it definitely lost me on first read. Hahaha. But I got the gist of it :smirk:.

Does any of that explain my situation better to you? We don’t have to agree I guess but does that help you understand my situation any better?

If I didn’t have hCG in this protocol. I can guarantee I wouldn’t have this little balancing act going on atm. That’s where your approach is 100% warranted. But I have to try reverse some atrophy. I must.