T Nation

SA22C TRT HCG Thyroid Log

Also make sure to include rt3 for thyroid and fsh with lh. Also get cholesterol, cbc, pregnenalone, dhea-s, cortisol and the 3 growth hormone variants. Have you ever been knocked out or had any concussions?

Would you consider your testicles small and atrophied currently? If your LH and fsh are near zero, hcg should help temporarily jump start 1/2 of their original function. Only half because hcg is an analog to lh but not fsh. If your LH and fsh numbers are good, then you have primary hypogonadism which means your testes are your problem. This means TRT is required and neither hcg or a pct restart will do anything.

Ok. All those others you mentioned are included in my tests. So so will post up once received. Prolactin was being checked which I assume is the pregnalone you mentioned?

On a side note. My doc and the nurse were so ditsy about ‘you like that word’ :wink:, ordering these specific bloods. I had to pay extra which is no issue but I was booked in at 8 15am and I spent 45 mins going back and forth with the doc to get these tests. Then later I’m in with the nurse to draw the blood and she kept going back into the docs office, to confirm certain tests etc. Then she had to ring the pathology to find out which ones were covered. Which weren’t. So by the time they drew blood it was 9.30. So I’m sure cortisol may be high lol.

My testicals now are funny because honestly they can be the size of small chicken eggs. So they’re looking decent enough , hanging low enough. But then later on in the day they could be so shrivelled up that there’s basically just tight wrinkled skin there.

I know balls are meant to fluctuate but. They disappear too much at times. Especially in sex or masturbation.

I’ve done boxing on n off numerous times over the years. I would say I’ve had alot of mild concussions? But I’ve never been knocked out. Down yes but not out.

So I guess we wait and see whether I’m primary or secondary hypo.

I’ve got a feeling I’m primary. And the body is doing its job but it just can’t produce more test then what it is.

In saying that I used DIM for 2 weeks. (3 weeks ago). I stopped 1 week before these tests to try balance back out. There’s alot of mixed information on DIM and what it does exactly but for me, I feel … It was definitely excreting bad estrogen from my body as I hadn’t felt, a bit alive, in soooo long. (that was the 1st week). 2nd week, started feeling worse, plus no libido etc etc. So I stopped.

Been feeling super down this past few days before I did these tests yesterday. So around lunchtime yesterday. I decided to take 100 mg of DIM. Around 4-5 hours later. I started to feel better and could laugh n be my confident self. Now it’s not like full on 100% but it is better.

So my reason for saying all this is because my Test is so low. Once I start descreting some bad /extra estrogen (however you perceive DIM too work), I start to feel a bit better. Because the balance of my test to est is starting to become a lil closer to normal. That’s my feeling anyway.

So if I had higher Test levels (WHERE THEY F****** SHOULD BE) and estrogen was in an equally good place. I’m sure I’d be feeling like my old self. And ready to live the best years of my life yet.

Also in regards to the DIM and thyroid function
Whilst on DIM for 2 weeks. I had the lump feeling in the bottom of your throat where your thyroid gland is. What this means. I do not know exactly. But I think its useful information :+1: Cheers @Hostile

More side notes. I think I should get my prostate checked. As I reckon it’s enlarged. I also have a high risk of prostate cancer (YAY), not. As it runs all down my family. So it may be inevitable. TRT could possibly bring this on quicker. But it’s a risk I’m willing to take. I’ve decided I would rather live how ever many years as a 100% happy again individual. Oppose to a LONG, life where I’m miserable, down, tired, anti social etc etc etc for no f****** no reason (out of whack hormones).

I found a good video on HCG with TRT. If you’re interested. https://youtu.be/rLk0VZG8FXA
I see now why you asked about pregenolone. I wish I had of had this tested this week. These are the kind of things I wanted to get a base line of. Anyway. Whatever my results say. I won’t start using HCG before TRT. I would rather leave my lh pumping naturally as it is. N let it slowly stop again while on TRT before using hCG instead of just flooding my body with HCG before starting TRT. I don’t want too shock it. N then drop it. If that makes sense. Even on my TRT dose. Will be slowly introducing myself too exogenous testosterone again. That’s how I feel about it.

For anyone in the future reading this and may be similar to my situation. I’m going to keep a blog for you of my outcome. OK so. I know my bloods won’t be back for a couple more days and some of you may be thinking I have T tunnel vision from my posts.

Anyhow I decided I could not wait any longer longer.

I started TRT yesterday on the 19/09/18. Now any of you can say whatever you want. And call placebo etc etc andI have no problem with that. But I can tell you I already feel a small (very small) difference from DAY 1.

Its not like night and day and some light bulb has gone off, it won’t work that way But I can feel my body already accepting the exogenous testosterone. Yesterday I already feel more calm, relaxed, a little bit happier and I can honestly feel my body already changing and allowing, using, accepting the test. And I feel better already, as I said It’s not like a night n day difference yet but already on the improve. I had the best sleep I’ve had in such a long time. I couldn’t wake up. I slept in. It was soothing and relaxing and I guess normal. Which they have not been for so long. I had crazy dreams about getting my new gf pregnant and then my ex pregnant. I dunno its a dream, they’re weird but let’s not go there lol… So DAY 2, Right now I’m lying in bed typing this. I feel a little groggy but I’ve only woken 30 mins ago n I’ve slept in. But i feel better then past days of waking. Now I’m awake. It feels a little easier to get out if bed then usual. But I feel relaxed. I think today I just want to take it easy and let it my body start getting use having testosterone flowing through my veins again. Cheers everyone. Have a great day :ok_hand::grin:

I’ve replied to you @Hostile but anybody can jump in :+1:.
OK. So I got my 90% of my bloods back today. I’m a little pissed off too say the least. When I went in there I told them T3 and T4 were not covered. And I would pay. They assured me they were covered. Resukts come back and T3 and T4 were not tested as my overall thyroid number is in within ranges. I F****** told these idiots.

So on top of that. I have payed for reverse T3 ‘RT3’ and it will be coming in a few days along with DHEA. They are 2 still missing.

So I’ll be getting RT3 results without knowing T3 and T4. What a F****** D*******!

This has led me in the future to seek out a doctor specialising in the endo system. I wanted all these base numbers before I started anything. Anyhow on top of that. He had spelling mistakes in DHEA and IGF-1… “GHEA’, 'IGH-1”. So he’s clearly not even checking his work or caring alot. Also if he was onto it, he would of checked PREGENOLONE. So I was a little annoyed. He’s been good over the years for normal things but not for this I guess. Even going through my results today. Because everything was in normal range. He was satisfied. He did refer me to endo when blood was drawn 4 days ago. As previously mentioned. Soooooooooooooooo.

RESULTS SO FAR ARE AS FOLLOWS: :blush:

TSH : 2.0 mIU/L (0.5-4.0)

SH : IU/L - 4 <7

LH : IU/L - 2.0 <7

OEST2 : 81 - pmol/L or 22 pg/ml when converted on a chart. <150 - AUS guidelines.

PROGESTERONE - WAS NOT EVEN CHECKED (ITS BLANK.)

TOTAL TESTOSTERONE : 14 nmol/L (8.3-29)

SHBG : 29 nmol/L (11-71)

FREE TEST : 298.0 pmol/L (255-725)

SERUM FERRITIN : 332 ug/L (30-300)

SERUM CORTISOL : 314 nmol/L (120-620)AM reference interval. TAKEN AT 9:13am.

PROLACTIN : 76 mIU/L (40-450)
IGF-1 (Somatomedin C) : 44 nmol/L (15-43)

VITAMIN D (serum 25 OH) : 107 nmol/L (51-200)

I HAVE FULL LIPIDS, SERUM CHEMISTRY & HAEMATOLOGY if anyone feels they are necessary.

So one thing I’d like to point out. Is after a healthy diet for 4 months and no alcohol for 3 months. And losing 15kg in the last 4 months aswell. (down to 74kg atm)

It could of played a little factor in my Total T going from 10 to 14 in the past 4 months. And my SHBG going from 13 to 29 and free test is right around the same 295 to 298.

If you want me to go into liver enzymes, albumin, globulin, protein, cholesterol etc, etc. Just ask. So without knowing reverseT3 and DHEA until a few days and maybe never T3 or T4. Well at least until about 6 weeks when I do new bloods. What does everyone think.

My HPTA is functioning but just not as good as it would of been if I never took any steroids 10-11 years ago. And now I’m stuck with low T???
Or this can’t be answered correctly unless rT3, T3, T4 and DHEA are checked?

Cheers to anyone or all who respond.

I forgot to mention the DIM supplement for 2 weeks straight stopping 1 week before bloods could have something to do SHBG rising.

Put up your CBC, lipids etc. Your e2 is good, but may be higher if/when your T levels improve. Those e2 levels with your low FT could indicate liver and gut disfunction. Your T levels are definitely low for your age and you’re not shut down, but your brain isn’t recognizing your low T as low enough to produce high LH or FSH, which is what should typically happen. Our brains should “see” lower T levels and increase LH & FSH which should increase T levels by stimulating your testes, if the testes are functioning correctly.

More labs really would be useful. I always went to discountedlabs when trying to figure things out on my own. It’s usually much cheaper than insurance and you can pick the exact labs you want and go to a labcorp location anytime that’s convenient for you. Your TSH is a little high but we need t4, t3 and rt3 to get the full thyroid picture.

You have a few options here: You’re not shut down, so I wouldn’t use hcg by itself or trt initially because they will both shut you down if used over enough time. I would likely first try getting all of your other systems functioning better. If rt3 comes back high, that indicates stress and can lower our test production (typically done through pregnenalone steal, but this doesnt seem all that likely with you since your cortisol levels are mid range). You can try supplementing with pregnenalone or possibly dhea (if your dhea-s levels show up as high or normal, this won’t help).

If you go down that road unsuccessfully, I’d then next try clomid or nolva standalone. Those should increase your LH and FSH which should in turn increase your TT and hopefully your FT.

If that fails, you’ll likely need to look at TRT.

1 Like



I do have a dysfunctional liver and gut i would say. From 10 years of alcohol and bad food abuse. But it is on the improve as you cab see on the past 4 months, between my tests. Some liver enzymes have gone down. Not quite enough for my liking. But going down. ‘ALT’ actually nearly doubled and went up, now I’m eating healthy. I asked the doctor about it as we went through. He didn’t seem concerned,. Was Only happy that the others have dropped. ALK PHOSPHATE and GGT. For ex.

You can also see he hasn’t checked my HDL, LDL, Non HDL cholesterol or Tryglicerides this time. Which I’m not impressed about either. I’m certain I could have lowered my bad and upper my good cholesterol in the last 4 months.

I will have to get re tested. For this and T3, T4 and pregenolone. I want to find a new doctor as well… I’m going back next week to get rT3 and DHEA, So I will say what happens.

I’m from Sydney Australia. So the website you mentioned is no good to me. Our national medicare insurance covers 90% of these tests. So it’s not a big issue paying fir a couple for a base line.

I value your reply greatly.
I’m not sure if you read. But I’ve already one shot of test on Wednesday.

I just couldn’t wait any longer.
I guess I really need the thyroid checks done and try a standalone cycle of nolva for what 6 weeks? And then see if my system can improve its natural test production.

If levels do raise to a suitable level and I feel good. Then great. But would it last after nolva is stopped. I’d have to see I guess. My heart says it won’t. But that’s all hearsay I guess.

So since I’m not shutdown. If I was to be a smart person like yourself. I’d have to take my time. And go through a couple of protocols with nolva and get a better functioning thyroid and liver. And see what happens after that.

Could possibly finish this bottle of test like a small cycle , run some hcg towards the end and try nolva and ir clomid. And see how I bounce back. Or is just reckless in your eyes?

I know this is my long term health we’re talking about here but I’m at the point where I really couldn’t be F***** right now. Going through another 6 or more weeks, of not feeling right. I don’t know if I could do it right now.

I must say your answers are the bomb mate. I can’t thank you enough. You’ve been so helpful and I’d love to see what you say about my liver reports and cholesterol etc. I will definitely try go get T3, T4, pregenolone and new cholesterol done again. I have alot to think about. I want to try get my natural test production pumping harder first. Believe me. But where I’m at in my life right now. I’m not going to start running nolva and stop the exogenous test. I just can’t go through the ups n downs atm. So don’t think I’m not taking on board everything you say. Because I am. Very much so. But I may have to leave it for 2 months down the track to try your protocol. I. Hope you understand. Be as Hostile as you want in your reply :wink: lol. Thanks again @Hostile your really helping me understanding everything much clearer.

Also do you feel this would lower my TSH number?

Or would this be pointless to take until I go back and finally get them to check T3, T4 like I’d already asked.

See I am trying to get everything in check. To see what effect it will have on natural test production. But I just couldn’t hold if any longer to start feeling better. So I may run the test e as a mini cycle n then spend a quality 2-3 months, trying to improve everything to see if it can get my body to produce more test naturally. You reckon I’m a D******* or what? Lol

Don’t mess with supplements when attempting to diagnose your thyroid, otherwise the diagnosis isn’t going to show what’s actually going on.

Yeah good point. OK. I will try get blood taken again when I collect reverse T3 and DHEA results next week.

Just to clarify Hostile. You want me to run Nolva for a while. To try and see if it will trick the pituary gland into producing more LH (which will give testes more volume) and f-SH (for sperm count). Which in turn both should result in a higher natural test production of TT and hopefully FT. That’s correct yeah? And does nolva do this by blocking the estrogen pathway back to pituary gland. So it tells the LH n SH hormines to pump out more to create more testosterone. Because no estrogen is being received back to the pituary. And males don’t produce E. Its all aromatised from T.

Is all that correct?

So if i did run Nolva and it managed to trick my pituary into pumping out more LH and SH out. I would hopefully see higher test levels. Correct? And this also could possibly cease after the nolva is stopped?
So is it possible it wouldn’t work at all and I would feel shit for a while because of Low E? Or is it just blocking the pathway back to the brain. So in return that level of E is still actually in my body. The nolva has just made it think that there is none. ???

Cheers brother.

Would you say with a TSH number of 2.0. That my thyroid is not under active? Or is it impossible to say unless you check the amount of T3 and t4 being produced. As well as rt3. Because if that comes back high. Then it’s all being converted into rt3?

I’ve done shit loads of reading. And I guess I understand it but just struggling to process exactly how the thyroid and pituary gland work together. I guess it’s not black and white and lots of variables come into play. And even if one is working properly. The other may not.

TSH can be unreliable and doesn’t always become elevated when thyroid hormones are low. Ideally you want free T3 mid-range or slightly better, free T4 mid-range and reverse T3 15 ng/dL or less.

Ok, there’s a lot going on here. You really should have waited before injecting.

Were you sick or dealing with an infection during your may bloodwork?

Your hematocrit/hct is likely going to be a problem with higher T levels. I’d suggest high dose omega 3s everyday and make sure you’re always hydrated. Worse comes to worse, you’ll need double red blood cell donations if that gets too high. High hct makes our blood thick and increases the risk of stroke, blood clots and generally makes our heart work hard and our blood less efficiently moved.

Your high albumin is why your free T is even lower than your total t.

Your higher alt and ast can easily be explained by heavy lifting. Were you lifting heavy around the time of your second test?

A trt cycle isn’t the most wise decision currently. It’s an option, but you’re somewhat solidifying the trt path for the foreseeable future when something else may have worked or at least given you suitable results and relief.

I thunk you should have started with trying pregnenalone and if that didn’t help, dhea and supplements to improve your liver and kidney function which could help lower your albumin number which will increase your free T. I’d also suggest improving gut health. The best thing you can do is eat fermented vegetables everyday. I prefer sauerkraut, it but needs to be fermented and bought at the refrigerated section of the store.

If that doesn’t help you could try nolva or Clomid and yes your thought process is correct.

If the above doesn’t work, id run testosterone injected twice per week, 50mg at each injection is a good place to start. If you’re concerned with fertility and testicular function, id take Clomid or nolva at the same time with it. Low dose everyday typically 10-20mg nolva every day.

If that combo doesn’t work, you can try trt and hcg but some don’t feel well on hcg; I am one of them. An AI can be used if needed if estrogen gets very high and it may with your already relatively high e2 due to your liver, kidney and gut not functioning well. Balancing e2 is a nightmare. I’d highly suggest no matter what, you get your liver, kidneys and gut health running better because if you don’t, you’re going to run into bigger problems down the road that could be mitigated in advance.

Taking iodine is going to increase your tsh not lower it because your thyroid will interpret it as gasoline in an engine and make it work harder. I’d start with just selenium and getting your kidney, liver and gut working better first.

Ok. So in the May test. I was sick. I’d just come back from a trip to Thailand. Upon return to Australia. I got the worst flu I’ve ever had. And it lasted about 2 weeks.

I do understand the seriousness of high HCT & how extra Test can have this effect. And also how to try deal with it. (it’s probably one of my 2 main concerns) with TRT. That and raising bad cholesterol.

I do take these every now and again. But I should start everyday.

IMG_20180922_093704

Like I said. I have led an unhealthy life for the past 10 + years. Always on n off with good nutrition, training and drinking alcohol. Go good for a bit and then fall back, further, from bad habits.

So around 6 months ago. In late March to April. I started on the good road again. And once I’ve been back from overseas at the end of May. I’ve committed 100%. I was surprised some of my results hadn’t lowered even further since the May tests. But I will continue to eat clean and live a healthy lifestyle to further improve my liver, gut and kidney function… By the way which results give you the kidney readings?

Concerning high ALT and AST (by the way I really thank you for having such an in depth look and paying close attention).
I asked the doctor as to why these had gone up since I’ve made diet and lifestyle changes. He didn’t really explain. Just that it didn’t matter too much about those readings he thought. He was concerned with GGT n ALK.

I drive a truck for work and it does involve heavy lifting at times. But I must say, I have been lifting weights alot more frequently. In the past 4 months. With my new lifestyle. BUT… I NEVER lift REAL heavy. So I’m not sure??

I will buy some pregnenolone supplements and DHEA.

Can you tell that Pregnenolone and DHEA are no good mainly from the CBC results or the hematology report?

The DHEA and rt3 results will be obtained early next week. And I will get pregenolone tested for with the new T3 t4 results…

So you think I’m low in pregnenolone and DHEA and its causing high albumin readings. And bad, gut, liver and kidney function? Again which results give the kidney diagnosis?

I understand albumin binds to free Test and then your body can’t use it.
Even though my numbers are within guideline limits. You feel lowering that albumin number would definitely increase some FT???

I personally hope my GGT and ALK continue to drop with clean eating. Lots of water. And routine exercise.

Whether it makes a difference. I did use Swisse liver detox pills. For the past few months. To try and help the liver do its job better.

I 100% agree with trying to get everything sorted out, before just going into TRT. Everything you’ve explained so far is just top notch. Can’t thank you enough.

I will post the DHEA and rt3 results in a few days and I’ll try get new bloods for pregenolone T3 T4 next week. So I can a get a gauge on my thyroid.

I will continue to eat clean and live a healthy life to try and lower some liver enzymes. Again which are the kidney readings? Cheers.

The past 4 months. To lose 15kg. I’ve eaten mainly eggs, chicken, corn beef and tuna. And just salads, fruits and steamed vegetables.

Its not the most exciting diet but with walking 4km every night, sometimes jogging. It’s definitely been working for fat loss.

But I am at stage where I can’t lose the rest of my gut. And I guarantee its my hormones. As you said. Moderate e levels n shit t levels.

OK. SO THERE WAS THE SENSIBLE ME. NOW.

This is going to feel like a rant lol…

I don’t want you to feel like you’re wasting your time. Because you’re not. So be to be straight up. I will continue my TRT doses of test for the next 31 days. Possibly 62 days. But whilst doing this I will be pro active on continuing to improve my gut, liver, kidney function. With what you’ve told me. Also once I get thyroid results, which more then likely need some work there too. I will be proactive on that.

Correct me I’m wrong. But even though I’ll be injecting exogenous test for a month or two. As long as I continue to improve things at the same time with food and supplements… … And then possibly run some HCG near the end of the 2 months to kick start LH again ((I will do e3d shots if I start to see too much teste shrinkage))… And being proactive with thyroid function if tests reveal I need too. (which they probably will)…

Sooo what I’m trying to say is if I run TRT doses for 2 months. Whilst supplementing and eating things to increase natural production. Some HCG near the end. Some nolva for “PCT” (I’ve got a feeling my body won’t agree with clomid)… If I do it this way… Its POSSIBLE I could potentially get the whole system to start working better and producing more natural test. Yeah?

Given the fact that If lower albumin, get the hcg and nolva to produce more LH. (I’m not worried about fertility). Then IT’S POSSIBLE if everything was in better order I could naturally get higher test levels. And in return “feel better”. It may not happen. But its possible yes. If e2 n SHBG were functioning at good levels with my natural test production??? Its possible you feel???

I can’t see the harm in running 2 months of TRT doses for now (as a short term fix) whilst improving everything else in the background. I know it may seem counterproductive. BUT as long as I’m teaching my body in the background to start to improve gut, liver, kidney function. ((IF PREGENOLONE OR DHEA SUPPS AND A FURTHER HEALTHY LIFESTYLE HELP THIS.)) And I can lower albumin numbers in the background… And then I give it a red-hot crack. After the 2 months… I know suppressing myself again isn’t wise. But if I utilise everything you’ve told me. I can’t see any major issues?

It MAY even bounce back harder???

As it would be starting to get shut off again after all these years and then BOOM!. Gets its first taste of hcg and nolva… Keeping in mind I’ll be using pregnenolone and DHEA supplements for 2 months while on test. To try lower albumin.

So basically, do you see a big issue with running TRT doses for 2 months whilst doing some of the things you’ve mentioned and then starting a hcg, nolva protocol. And then seeing how my levels are again 2 months after that?

I feel it can’t really fuck me over any more then I am atm? So that’s what I’ve sought of committed too for the next 2 months. How do you feel about that?

OK from reading. I understand Albumin is created by the liver and is a protein. And if levels are high. It could indicate not very well functioning kidneys. And also could be raised by high blood pressure. My doctor has never even taking my blood pressure. I wouldn’t have a clue. What my blood pressure. I’d hope low. In the normal range :crazy_face: