T Nation

Running on Performance

Does anyone have any experience with training for marathons while also training for powerlifting? I promised a friend i would train with them for a half marathon, and i figure i could use the cardiovascular benefits. But does anyone have any experience with this affecting their performance with heavy lifting? I plan on eating tons to offset the extra work, but thats about it. I assume I’ll lose several pounds, which i guess wouldnt be soo bad.

Impossible to improve both, maybe even impossible to maintain one while improving the other.

Powerlifting = fast twitch dominant
Half Marathons = slow twitch dominant

See the contradiction?

[quote]carter12 wrote:
Impossible to improve both, maybe even impossible to maintain one while improving the other.

Powerlifting = fast twitch dominant
Half Marathons = slow twitch dominant

See the contradiction?[/quote]

I know the improvements would be very slow, but it must be possible to increase both types of fibers.

I haven’t seen any information on this, but just from experience I know it’s possible to increase both. I’m also sure athletes do it all the time.

I’m interested to see what others have to say.

[quote]vision1 wrote:
just from experience I know it’s possible to increase both. [/quote]

From your training logs and other posts, it seems pretty obvious you don’t know much about increasing your fast-twich fibers. You’re pretty weak.

I suppose it’s possible to “increase” your fast-twitch fibers, if that means you’ll be able to deadlift 200 pounds.

How can you be sure? Cite some examples.

[quote]tinytim wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with training for marathons while also training for powerlifting? [/quote]

Read that question over and over until it answers itself. I only had to read it once and it screamed the answer to me.

Yeah you’re right man, just the other day I saw a Kenyan squat 700 then finished third in the Boston Marathon. You can do anything man! Fuck biology!

[quote]carter12 wrote:
Yeah you’re right man, just the other day I saw a Kenyan squat 700 then finished third in the Boston Marathon. You can do anything man! Fuck biology![/quote]

LOL.

[quote]tinytim wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with training for marathons while also training for powerlifting? I promised a friend i would train with them for a half marathon, and i figure i could use the cardiovascular benefits. But does anyone have any experience with this affecting their performance with heavy lifting? I plan on eating tons to offset the extra work, but thats about it. I assume I’ll lose several pounds, which i guess wouldnt be soo bad.[/quote]

From an exercise science standpoint, you are talking opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of every single adaptation that I can think of off the top of my head. Pretty much all aspects of training are polar opposites for the two disciplines. It’s kind of like asking “Can I study for my MD and my Fine Arts Doctorate in the same 4 year span?” The two don’t have a whole lot of overlap.

Of course, if you are as weak as shit, then your lifting numbers could improve with all that running.

Good luck regardless, train and have fun.

And remember, the first guy to run the “Marathon” died as soon as he arrived. That should tell you something.

haha, i do realize the two training ideologies are at different ends of the spectrum. I guess my question is more, how do i reduce the transition of fibres while training for the half marathon. I know, it doesnt make sense at all. howevah, I made a promise, and i intend to keep it. appreciate the responses thus far.

Howevah, the only way you’re going to do that is to barely train the half marathon. You can always run in the back with the old ladies. If your friends laugh then challenge them to any kind of activity that requires a tiny amount of strength.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
vision1 wrote:
just from experience I know it’s possible to increase both.

From your training logs and other posts, it seems pretty obvious you don’t know much about increasing your fast-twich fibers. You’re pretty weak.

I suppose it’s possible to “increase” your fast-twitch fibers, if that means you’ll be able to deadlift 200 pounds.

I’m also sure athletes do it all the time.

How can you be sure? Cite some examples.[/quote]

No need to attack me, I’ve never said I’m strong.

But yes it is possible to increase both.

Example: (I’ll use points to show what I mean)

A1 starts with 10 points of fast twitch and 10 points of slow twitch.

If it were impossible to increase both he would always stay with a total of 20 points (maybe 19 fast and 1 slow if he’s only been worrying about PLing)

It’s quite obvious this is not how things work. Have you never seen an athlete increase one area without losing in another? I’m sure you’ll say no, so now we are here:

A1 now has 15 fast and 10 slow. He/She now puts a little more emphisis on endurance and ends up with 12 fast and 13 slow… A gain in BOTH areas.

BTW, I deadlift in the mid 300s

EDIT: As for the evidence you want, just look at any athlete who has made improvements

Here is Kelly Baggett’s reply to a question I onced asked him.

Q: 1.) In the off-season is it better to maintain endurance the entire time, or to leave it off until the end, and then build it back up again?

2.) If I leave it off until the end so that I can focus on strength and explosiveness, what is the best way to maintain the strength and speed I gained while working on endurance at the end?

A: Well first of all figure out what your main goals are in the off-season. If you’re like most people you want to develop your core motor abilities like strength and reactivity. An excessive amount of conditioning will interfere with that. Conditioning is quick to come and anyone can develop it. Your baseline qualities like strength, speed, and explosiveness are harder to come by and take longer to develop. Additionally, your baseline levels of speed and power serve as a foundation for power endurance.

Let’s say you have 2 basketball players. One of them takes a no holds barred approach to getting his strength and power up in the off-season and totally neglects his conditioning. He ends up with a 40 inch vertical jump. The other guy spends his entire offseason taking a hardcore approach towards getting his conditioning up. He moves to Denver and wakes up at 5am and runs up hills in the mountains and utilizes all sorts of other “cutting edge” training methods so that he can be the “man”. After all this he ends up with a 32 inch vertical jump. However, his conditioning has paid off to the point where he doesn’t lose anything over the course of an entire game. He’s just as explosive in the 4th quarter as he is the first quarter. In contrast, the other guy loses 5% each quarter. Their performance might look something like this:

---------------Athlete A-----------Athlete B
-----------------VJ-------------------VJ
first quarter----32-------------------40
second quarter—32-------------------38
third quarter----32-------------------36
fourth quarter—32-------------------34.2
OT---------------32-------------------33

So the guy with the 40 inch VJ, even though his conditioning was poor and he lost 25% off his performance, was still more explosive at the end of the game. Who would you rather be? Now imagine if the explosive guy had focused a bit on his conditioning so that he could maintain that superior explosiveness as good as athlete A?

Now, getting back to the point. Engaging in excessive amounts of conditioning during the offseason will interfere with the acquistion of core qualities like strength, power, and reactivity, but that doesn’t mean you should sit around on your butt. It’s a lot easier to maintain a quality then it is to boost a quality. One session per week of low intensity conditioning will be enough to maintain the majority of your conditioning off-season. In lieu of that just stay active. If you play your sport at all you won’t even need to worry about it.

A couple of months prior to your season is when you’d want to add in a day of anaerobic conditioning. A month prior to the season add in another day or 2. By that time you’ll have your strength and power in place and can maintain those qualities by reducing the volume up to 2/3 while you focus on bringing up your conditioning.

So a sample for an entire offseason for a football player might look something like this:

January ? Mid-May (focus: Strength and muscle mass accumulation)

Mon: Lower body lifting
Tues: Upper body lifting
Thurs: Lower body lifting
Fri: Low volume speed and movement work (speed, agility), Upper body lifting

Late May ? Late June (focus: Strength and Power Accumulation ? begin conditioning)

Mon: Speed/Plyo training, Upper body lifting
Wed: Conditioning (using football agility drills with short rest intervals) Lower body lifting
Fri: Upper body lifting
Sat: Speed/Plyo training

July ? Mid-August (focus: Improve conditioning ? Maintain strength, speed, and explosiveness)

Mon: Upper body lifting, anaerobic conditioning using sprint intervals
Tues: Lower body lifting
Wed: Anaerobic conditioning using football agility drills
Thurs: Upper Body lifting
Friday: Anaerobic conditioning

Mid-August ? November (focus: maintain strength and bodyweight)

Wed: Full body lifting
Sun: Full body lifting

This is actually interesting. But if you were an average or above average powerlifter, your going to be pretty terrible in a marathon. If your average or above average at running a marathon, your not going to be able to really lift much of anything. How good to you want to be at both? How close would you be competing at these events? Like within the same week?

Even look at olympic athletes, take decathlon athletes. They do almost exclusively a wide range of strength orientated events. 100m, long jump, shot put, high jump, 110m hurdles, pole vault, and javelin throw. Then you got the 400m which is the longest sprint event, and then finally you have the 1500m the only real endurance event in the decathlon.

I can’t think of a better example than Bryan Clay from the USA with his 2004 Olympic silver medal.
100m - 1st Place
Long Jump - 1st Place
Javelin - 1st Place
Discus Throw - 2nd Place
110m Hurdles - 6th Place
High Jump - 6th Place
Shotput - 8th Place
Paul Vault - 9th Place
400m - 15th Place
1500m - 24th Place

Look at the difference, hes fairly good in all strength events, but he suffers in the 400m and 1500m, the edurance events, and this is the best decathlon athlete in the USA. He has been attempting to improve his weaknesses his entire career. And it’s only the 1500m, imagine how poorly he would do in a marathon, being over 28 times longer in distance. I dunno man, I’m interested in what your goal is, and the result.

T.J, that’s a very good example

[quote]vision1 wrote:
But yes it is possible to increase both.

Example: (I’ll use points to show what I mean)

A1 starts with 10 points of fast twitch and 10 points of slow twitch.

If it were impossible to increase both he would always stay with a total of 20 points (maybe 19 fast and 1 slow if he’s only been worrying about PLing)

It’s quite obvious this is not how things work. Have you never seen an athlete increase one area without losing in another? I’m sure you’ll say no, so now we are here:

A1 now has 15 fast and 10 slow. He/She now puts a little more emphisis on endurance and ends up with 12 fast and 13 slow… A gain in BOTH areas.[/quote]

This is just some hypothetical scenario you came up with.

I asked you to cite an actual EXAMPLE. You do know the difference, don’t you?"

[quote]vision1 wrote:
Here is Kelly Baggett’s reply to a question I onced asked him.
[/quote]

While the answer is well-reasoned and all-around good reading, it still does not prove your point. It is irrelevant to this discussion.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
This is just some hypothetical scenario you came up with.

I asked you to cite an actual EXAMPLE. You do know the difference, don’t you?"

[/quote]

If it weren’t possible to increase both, there would be no reason to make gains in the off-season. Because either way you’d lose it all once you began to get your endurance back.

If you really want some cited examples, go check out some of the stuff about Defranco’s athletes on his website. I’m sure if they lost all of there slow twitch / endurance (what ever you want to call it), He wouldn’t be bragging about there improvements because they would all leave him. Other than maybe the football players, they’d all end up shitty players if they couldn’t get through the game like before.

And what’s with all the attitude? Every post I read of yours is like that. Is your life that bad that you need to let out all your frustration on the internet?

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
vision1 wrote:
Here is Kelly Baggett’s reply to a question I onced asked him.

While the answer is well-reasoned and all-around good reading, it still does not prove your point. It is irrelevant to this discussion.[/quote]

Irrelevent to the discussion? Do you even know what this discussion is about? The OP wanted to know what to do to minimize his losses while trainig for a half marathon. Kelly does go over this in part of his response.

[quote]vision1 wrote:
If it weren’t possible to increase both, there would be no reason to make gains in the off-season. [/quote]

You are not making any sense. In the very article you cite, the author notes that a person should MINIMIZE endurance work in the off season. The goal is to MAINTAIN one’s sport-specific endurance. MAINTAIN is not the same as GAIN.

Because FOOTBALL PLAYERS and other athletes need a lot of slow-twitch fibers? Have you read his Q&As? He is AGAINST “endurance” work for guys who want to be big and strong.

Most athletes are advised to do HIIT. That does not train slow-twich fibers. Sprinting and running several miles recruit different muscle fibers.

This entire thread involved this question: Can I get stronger while training for a half-marathon. My answer was, “If so, not by much.” You have not eroded my argument.

My life is great. This site used to be great until clueless people invaded the site. Too many of you have driven off the serious athletes, strongmen, powerlifters, and bodybuilders from this site.

Guys like you who have accomplished nothing seek validation. I don’t give it. Hence, I am a big meanie.

[quote]vision1 wrote:
Do you even know what this discussion is about? The OP wanted to know what to do to minimize his losses while trainig for a half marathon.[/quote]

Here is what the OP actually asked: “Does anyone have any experience with training for marathons while also training for powerlifting?” The implication is that the OP wants to train for a marathon while also training for powerlifting. As several people have told him, you can’t train for powerlifting AND train for a marathon.

Thus, I have to wonder: “Do you even know what this discussion is about?”