T Nation

Rummy Has All The Fun

This could be interesting it it goes anywhere anyhow. What I find important to note is that the people filing the suit were not charged with anything. The US apparently didn’t conclude they were actually guilty of anything or dangerous, they simply let them go.

This is in direct contrast to some of the most ardent supporters of tough actions against prisoners, who claim that they all deserve what they get and do not imagine that there are innocent people caught in the crossfire.

Do we really stand for ideals, or do we just say we do?


Suit Alleges Rumsfeld Approved Torture
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=1&u=/nm/20050301/pl_nm/iraq_abuse_rumsfeld_dc

The American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) and Human Rights First filed suit in federal district court in Rumsfeld’s home state of Illinois on behalf of eight former detainees who said they were severely tortured. All eight were subsequently released without being charged.

Click the link above for more, the story is not all that long but there is no need to quote the entire thing here…

If they were really sure of themselves they’d sue the Commander in Chief, not the “deputy CinC”.

I think you’re right vroom, in that if anything comes of this it could be a big deal.

That said, it’s really not so hard to file a lawsuit and allege a whole bunch of things. We’ll see what comes out.

Perhaps Joe, but I wish you’d stop using Elkhunter’s avatar… :wink:

[quote]vroom wrote:

Do we really stand for ideals, or do we just say we do?
[/quote]

What’s this we crap? You’re a Canadian, no?

yeah. I should, huh? It’s just so cool!
Besides, I think he’s changed his…

[quote]vroom wrote:
Perhaps Joe, but I wish you’d stop using Elkhunter’s avatar… ;)[/quote]

Vroomster, thanks for looking out, but I did submit a change due to the heist. I am not sure it went through yet.

there ya go, Vroom, anything for you!

I guess the question becomes was it torture and if so was it justified?

For example did it stop another major incident? Was torturing a known terrorist justified? Can Rummy or the President make that call.

I live in NYC. The threat to me is real. I am OK with them torturing known terrorists for information.

It is a very slippery slope and a tough decision, forced on us by circumstances.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
vroom wrote:
Perhaps Joe, but I wish you’d stop using Elkhunter’s avatar… :wink:

Vroomster, thanks for looking out, but I did submit a change due to the heist. I am not sure it went through yet.[/quote]

weren’t no heist, it was out there plain in the open with the keys in it! AND the engine running.

Hedo,

I see what you are saying, but the article claims that these supposed terrorists were simply released after being held a while.

If they were dangerous terrorists, or guilty of something, would they not have been likely to hold onto them?

What if, and I don’t claim to have the full facts, but what if these are just people pulled in and tortured – without being guilty of anything? Would you really consider that justified?

If so, we might as well torture everyone… there are some terrorists out there somewhere… I’m sure. This is why I keep asking about ideals and whether or not the ends justify the means with respect to this issue.

What does it mean if we resort to such tactics?

ah, but this old chesnut…end justified by means… does not look good in the eyes of, well, everyone.

we know it goes on, always has and always will. civil liberities and democracy were outed as good ideas to take care of a despot (rightly).

A. pot calling the kettle black does not look good.

b. If it is going to get done, ensure that it NEVER gets out, some moronic soldier never takes pictures (happend in uk also)/video, and it is KNOWN to those taking part that this is some serious shit, and a culture of flipancy not be allowed to exist.

ont have exec orders like this, or watergate here we come.

It means we value our safety and comfort and lives over the lives of those sworn to hurt/destroy us and our way of life.

Why is that a hard concept that needs to be thought about?

Some years ago a group of Palestinians tried to attack an Israeli patrol boat. A young lieutenant in the Israeli Navy fired at the boat, sinking it. Then he proceeded to machine gun the survivors in the water. When asked why by the head of the navy, he stated ‘because I didn’t know if they had grenades or explosives strapped to their bodies, and I valued the safety of my boat and crew over their lives’. He was promoted to captain on the spot.

There’s nothing wrong with being more concerned with our own welfare than the welfare of people who’re trying to hurt us. And, if there’s some collateral damage…well, how many people who were incinerated on 9/11 were collateral damage?
Fuck 'em all, fuck 'em hard.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
What does it mean if we resort to such tactics?

It means we value our safety and comfort and lives over the lives of those sworn to hurt/destroy us and our way of life.

Why is that a hard concept that needs to be thought about?

Some years ago a group of Palestinians tried to attack an Israeli patrol boat. A young lieutenant in the Israeli Navy fired at the boat, sinking it. Then he proceeded to machine gun the survivors in the water. When asked why by the head of the navy, he stated ‘because I didn’t know if they had grenades or explosives strapped to their bodies, and I valued the safety of my boat and crew over their lives’. He was promoted to captain on the spot.

There’s nothing wrong with being more concerned with our own welfare than the welfare of people who’re trying to hurt us. And, if there’s some collateral damage…well, how many people who were incinerated on 9/11 were collateral damage?
Fuck 'em all, fuck 'em hard.[/quote]

That’s pretty short-sighted. One of the tenets of this country is due process. You say it is okay to torture and kill people who have no connection to terrorism, just to cover all the bases. This is different from torturing or killing proven terrorists (which I have mixed feelings about).

Joe, thats not what this country is all about. We are supposed to be above that, even if it makes things harder for us. We are supposed to be different, the example setters for others who might sink to lower standards.

I was proud of the administration’s decision to stick with only limited, tactical bombings and missle strikes during the “shock and awe”. It would have been easy at times to carpet bomb the country, or to let the troops roll over it en masse. Instead, we’re suffering higher(still nothing compared to wars past) casualties because of our care in avoiding as many civilian casualties as possible. Yes there may be some unfortunate collateral damage, but, what makes the US special is that we bend over backwords to avoid it.

Joe W

I gotta tell you. Before 9/11 I would never have supported torture of a prisoner. No way.

These days I walk by that hole in the ground over near Vesey street everyday. Every fricking day. Fuck em hard. Yeah that’s where I am too these days.

I go to a bar on Irving pl. for a beer and dinner called Pete’s. It’s got a shrine to all the fireman and cops who died in the WTC. Revenge is a powerful emotion. Three years later I still see wives, friends etc walk by that shrine and bless themselves and touch the pictures. It makes your heart turn. I don’t want to see that again in my city and I don’t want to see it happen to my family or friends. So I guess if a terr gets treated pretty bad…well I guess they could have chosen a different profession.

What sucks is that a few innocents get punished for the actions of a few. That’s not good for humanity. Unfortunately it is the price we pay and the price they pay for choosing the lifestyle they are in.

Yeah, we’re supposed to be different. Yippee. What’d it get us?
I’m pretty sure that these “enemy combatant” types weren’t just scooped off the streets and dumped at Gitmo. The intelligence community may be in disarray, but it ain’t that bad.
“It wasn’t my bomb, I was just holdin’ it”.
Tough.
I’d rather do it to them…all of them…before they can do it to us.
When it comes down to it, most of the people on the Arab street don’t respond well to kindness, they see it as weakness. It’s some sort of cultural thing. It may be short sighted, or maybe it’s not. If we were dealing with another group of people, I’d never advocate it.
But so many Arabic/Muslim types hate us so much, for no good reason and would stop at nothing to kill each and every one of us. That includes you.
And while they’re blowing you up, or decapitating you, make sure you tell them how you were against torture possibly being used against them and their bretheren.
The other thing we need to discuss here is just what is and what isn’t torture.
According to the ACLU, keeping people awake, subjecting them to loud unpleasant music etc are torture. And that’s crap. So don’t wring your hands too much.

I have a mental tape reel of that day–of those towers, of all of it. It plays in the back of my head, periodically. Maybe some people here should find a web page where you can view the images. And make sure you find the movies of the savages decapitating westerners with dull knives too.

The administration did it to keep as much of the infrastructure intact as they could, and to try and show the Iraqi person on the street that we were nice guys.
If you wanna talk about US policy in a blanket statement like this, look up the fire bombing of Tokyo and look up what happened to Dresden etc.
It’s all in what serves the purpose at the time.

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Joe, thats not what this country is all about. We are supposed to be above that, even if it makes things harder for us. We are supposed to be different, the example setters for others who might sink to lower standards.

I was proud of the administration’s decision to stick with only limited, tactical bombings and missle strikes during the “shock and awe”. It would have been easy at times to carpet bomb the country, or to let the troops roll over it en masse. Instead, we’re suffering higher(still nothing compared to wars past) casualties because of our care in avoiding as many civilian casualties as possible. Yes there may be some unfortunate collateral damage, but, what makes the US special is that we bend over backwords to avoid it.[/quote]

Okay, what I think I see is an inability to differentiate between innocent people who live in Iraq and guilty people who live in Iraq.

Harming innocent people in Iraq is no different than terrorists harming innocent people in New York, is it? How can you imagine everyone in the Middle East is a terrorist?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Unfortunately it is the price we pay and the price they pay for choosing the lifestyle they are in.

Okay, what I think I see is an inability to differentiate between innocent people who live in Iraq and guilty people who live in Iraq.

Harming innocent people in Iraq is no different than terrorists harming innocent people in New York, is it? How can you imagine everyone in the Middle East is a terrorist?
[/quote]

yeah Vroom, but I’m pretty sure we haven’t gone to Bagdad and started picking people up at random to go to Gitmo.
Add to that–not everyone who winds up in detention winds up being tortured (if any really are.), and what’ve you got?