T Nation

Rudy-2008

Rudy laid out his broad plans yesterday.

The Twelve Commitments:

  1. I will keep America on offense in the Terrorists’ War on Us.

  2. I will end illegal immigration, secure our borders, and identify every non-citizen in our nation.

  3. I will restore fiscal discipline and cut wasteful Washington spending.

  4. I will cut taxes and reform the tax code.

  5. I will impose accountability on Washington.

  6. I will lead America towards energy independence.

  7. I will give Americans more control over, and access to, healthcare with affordable and portable free-market solutions.

  8. I will increase adoptions, decrease abortions, and protect the quality of life for our children.

  9. I will reform the legal system and appoint strict constructionist judges.

  10. I will ensure that every community in America is prepared for terrorist attacks and natural disasters.

  11. I will provide access to a quality education to every child in America by giving real school choice to parents.

  12. I will expand America’s involvement in the global economy and strengthen our reputation around the world.

From:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1849065/posts

I’d be interested in hearing from my fellow Good Guys.

I’d even like to draw out the snakes (bradley, lumpy, renny, etc…) So far their objections to him have been weak and easily overcome. However, if there is something effective, I’d like to hear it here first so that I can develop a devastating counter.

Thanks in advance,

JeffR

If he does half the things on this list, it will be twice as much as the last two presidents had done.

All I ask for in a president is the strength of personal convictions, the power to enact them, and the ability to shame the rest of the government to do what’s right for the majority of americans. A popular dictator that will leave after eight (hell, or four) years. I mean, hey, if Iran, Venezuela, et. al. can have theirs, why can’t we?

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Rudy laid out his broad plans yesterday.

The Twelve Commitments:

  1. I will keep America on offense in the Terrorists’ War on Us. [/quote]

Translation: Our corporate sponsors can rest easy: bullshit wars will keep the dough rolling in.

Translation: Kiss your privacy and civil liberties goodbye; the government needs to know who you are and where you are at all times.

To keep you safe, of course.

[quote]
3. I will restore fiscal discipline and cut wasteful Washington spending. [/quote]

Translation: Mostly by redefining all spending deemed “wasteful” as “necessary.”

Translation: My rich sponsors will have more money left for my next campaign.

Translation: I’ll increase the bureaucracy and red tape to make it so hard to hold someone accountable that no one in their right minds will even try.

Translation: When most people are too poor to afford a car, they won’t have gas problems anymore.

Translation: If you’re sick, you’re on your own, sucka.

Translation: I have no idea how to do any of that, but it sure sounds good to the backward, religious republican base.

Translation: Strict constructionists being judges who see eye to eye with me on everything, of course.

Translation: That will let me install even more police and law enforcement everywhere.

Got to make sure everyone’s safe, you know.

Translation: If your kids are dumb, you’re pretty much on your own too.

Translation: Imperialism is cool and while I promise to strengthen our reputation, I haven’t mentioned what that reputation will be. Hehe.

Good luck with that…for all of its populist rhetoric, the Republican Party is even more of a big capitalist Party than the Democrats. You will find that Big Business wants cheap immigrant labor. This is definitely one of the points that is splitting the Republican Party.

Cut the taxes for whom, the rich (as Bush did) or middle-class families?
Also, how does he intend to pay for the massive debt we owe (due to this current war and other things)? I guess that means more money taken out of education and social concerns, ergo, more private schools and less good public ones and poorer social services.
Good, let’s widen the class division in this country.

Nice try to make his pro-abortion stance sit better with Christian fundamentalists.

[quote]entheogens wrote:

  1. I will end illegal immigration, secure our borders, and identify every non-citizen in our nation.

Good luck with that…for all of its populist rhetoric, the Republican Party is even more of a big capitalist Party than the Democrats. You will find that Big Business wants cheap immigrant labor. This is definitely one of the points that is splitting the Republican Party.[/quote]

Hey,

This one issue could win him the election. If he actually locks down the border, his political gain would be huge.

[quote]4. I will cut taxes and reform the tax code.

Cut the taxes for whom, the rich (as Bush did) or middle-class families?
Also, how does he intend to pay for the massive debt we owe (due to this current war and other things)? I guess that means more money taken out of education and social concerns, ergo, more private schools and less good public ones and poorer social services.
Good, let’s widen the class division in this country.[/quote]

Nonsense.

You do know the tax burden on the wealthy.

Are you a supporter of socialism?

[quote] 8. I will increase adoptions, decrease abortions, and protect the quality of life for our children.

Nice try to make his pro-abortion stance sit better with Christian fundamentalists.
[/quote]

Actually, that’s been his track record.

One must not make the mistake of allowing the MSM to define his record on this issue.

He supports the right to choose. However, he certainly doesn’t support it personally. He has donated to Planned Parenthood.

He’s not going to change the law–Roe v Wade, period.

You can bet, for every fundamentalist Christian he loses, he picks up someone with an open mind.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Rudy laid out his broad plans yesterday.

The Twelve Commitments:

  1. I will keep America on offense in the Terrorists’ War on Us.

[/quote]

Ooooohhhh. Creative twist on the age old “War on Terror”. Please explain what exactly that means? Is he going after Bin Laden (the O.G. terrorist), or is he planning on finding some news ones to attack and keep the Industrial Military Complex chugging along?

At best he gets marks for correct English, at least now we are targeting a group of people and not an idea.

How? How? and HOLY CRAP how? to put it mildly, this is a fucking bold undertaking. I definitely like the idea, but when the government has trouble identifying its citizens accurately, I am not sure how he plans on identify all the non-citizens.

I will give him a helping hand and let him know that I, as a non-citizen, am in Ohio, chilling with my green card. 1 down Rudy, a couple of million to go.

Not going to happen. If he could do this I might be inclined to declare him the greatest president ever, but he would have to hold every Senator at gunpoint to get rid of all the pork that is floating around. So once again, how is he going to gut pet projects when Senators have hissy fits at the mere mention of their pet projects getting cut from bills? Would be awesome though, no doubt.

ooookaaaayyyy… Cut taxes for who? Where is this money going to come from? Reform the tax code how? I do know he is (or was) last I checked running against the inheritance (aka death) tax which tends to affect richer people more than the average person.

He talking about the Senate / House or the other branches of government? Cos at the moment there is not a lot from either and I don’t see that changing any time soon.

Going for the green vote now? Once again, how exactly is this planned? Big undertaking here.

If he makes it illegal to get healthcare because you don’t care about your health in the first place, now that would make it affordable.

And his first step I am sure would be to allow gay parents to adopt. I can tell him how to decrease abortions, cut funding for abstinence only sex education and teach kids what the hell is going on down there.

Cos, and maybe my logic is off, but if you aren’t getting pregnant you won’t be having an abortion now will you. As for adoption and children stuff, people always say that, “for the children” is the rallying cry for almost every nutjob that wants to control what you can read / watch / do / enjoy.

I bet you will Rudy.

Should I expect the concentration camp in a cornfield in Ohio sometime circa 2010? Start by fixing FEMA and Homeland Security, then we can talk.

Maybe start by giving children real education instead of preparing for a battery of standardized tests.

Shit, you really like a friggin challenge don’t you?

[quote]

From:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1849065/posts

I’d be interested in hearing from my fellow Good Guys.

I’d even like to draw out the snakes (bradley, lumpy, renny, etc…) So far their objections to him have been weak and easily overcome. However, if there is something effective, I’d like to hear it here first so that I can develop a devastating counter.

Thanks in advance,

JeffR[/quote]

I don’t know how the hell you can develop a devastating counter when most of us can’t even develop devastating arguments. His commitments are so broad and open-ended it is ridiculous. Once he starts adding more substance to each one then we can go at it, and it will be glorious. Until then we will paint the worst case scenario, you will paint the brightest, and we will all wait in awe to see how he plans to mastermind these ideas.

Until he actually backs up his commitments with well laid out thoughts and plans I WILL dismiss them as rosy sweet-talk that every politician uses to get votes.

I still remember Nelson Mandela promising everyone in South Africa running water, electricity, and sewage back in '94, empty promises never get you very far.

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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Guliani is a moron. He came across as extremely stupid during the debates.

Guiliani= more of the same Bush bullshit

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
There is almost no better way for the republicans to throw away the election than to nominate Rudy.

I said “almost” because Ron Paul would be worse.

Hey Jeff tell me why you think the Christian right, which gave Bush his two wins, is going to turn out for a pro abortion, pro gay marriage and pro gun control candidate.

That’s about 5 million votes (give or take) that are either staying home or writing in another candidate.

[/quote]

Sure, Mick: hillary clinton.

NO ONE polarizes more. You haven’t even heard a peep of the MOUNTAIN of material on her.

I can speak for Republicans, we’re holding our smoke hoping she’s the nominee.

Second, wait until you hear the man speak. You’ll find that, as usual, the MSM hasn’t given an accurate description of the man.

JeffR

[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
Guliani is a moron. He came across as extremely stupid during the debates.

Guiliani= more of the same Bush bullshit[/quote]

MORON?

Are you serious?

That is one thing that he most certainly is not.

JeffR

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
JeffR wrote:

You can bet, for every fundamentalist Christian he loses, he picks up someone with an open mind.

JeffR

That statement implies that there are limitless voters just waiting for the opportunity to vote for Rudy.

Why wouldn’t someone with an open mind be persuaded to vote for the democratic candidate?

The republicans cannot throw away any large traditional voting block such as the Christian right, and still hope to win.

And in addition to the Christian right which will NOT be voting for Rudy you have the NRA and those who are very sympathetic to their cause.

Gun owners will not vote in large numbers for Rudy either.

That would be one more traditional republican voting block which will either stay home or vote for the democratic candidate.

Rudy is a loser and the sooner the republicans see that the better off they’ll be.

[/quote]

Mick,

I’m actually surprised I’m the only Good Guy on this forum pushing hard for Rudy.

I’ll bet you any amount of cash that if you couple Rudy’s commitment to fighting terrorism and crime. with the hillary factor, you will have plenty of people who will show up.

You’ll see guys/gals who are actually open minded enough to vote the man and not the party.

Rudy is further left on some issues than recent candidates.

How many times have we heard leftists pledging to vote for a Republican they believed in?

I’ll bet you there will be some people who will live up to that.

There will be people who will see hillary for what she is and put their money where their mouth is.

They’ll vote for Rudy.

By the way, I’m disappointed in some of my fellow Republicans for allowing the abortion issue to slam your mind shut.

This ron paul crap is a complete waste of breath. He got stomped on by Rudy in the first debate like a bug.

Thompson is a mildly attractive candidate, but, I don’t think he can stand up to the rigors of the clinton attack machine.

romney is a non-starter. No geographic advantages to his candidacy.

mccain is done and the rest are jockeying for cabinet positions.

JeffR

[quote]renny wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Rudy laid out his broad plans yesterday.

The Twelve Commitments:

  1. I will keep America on offense in the Terrorists’ War on Us.

Ooooohhhh. Creative twist on the age old “War on Terror”. Please explain what exactly that means? Is he going after Bin Laden (the O.G. terrorist), or is he planning on finding some news ones to attack and keep the Industrial Military Complex chugging along?

At best he gets marks for correct English, at least now we are targeting a group of people and not an idea.

  1. I will end illegal immigration, secure our borders, and identify every non-citizen in our nation.

How? How? and HOLY CRAP how? to put it mildly, this is a fucking bold undertaking. I definitely like the idea, but when the government has trouble identifying its citizens accurately, I am not sure how he plans on identify all the non-citizens.

I will give him a helping hand and let him know that I, as a non-citizen, am in Ohio, chilling with my green card. 1 down Rudy, a couple of million to go.

  1. I will restore fiscal discipline and cut wasteful Washington spending.

Not going to happen. If he could do this I might be inclined to declare him the greatest president ever, but he would have to hold every Senator at gunpoint to get rid of all the pork that is floating around. So once again, how is he going to gut pet projects when Senators have hissy fits at the mere mention of their pet projects getting cut from bills? Would be awesome though, no doubt.

  1. I will cut taxes and reform the tax code.

ooookaaaayyyy… Cut taxes for who? Where is this money going to come from? Reform the tax code how? I do know he is (or was) last I checked running against the inheritance (aka death) tax which tends to affect richer people more than the average person.

  1. I will impose accountability on Washington.

He talking about the Senate / House or the other branches of government? Cos at the moment there is not a lot from either and I don’t see that changing any time soon.

  1. I will lead America towards energy independence.

Going for the green vote now? Once again, how exactly is this planned? Big undertaking here.

  1. I will give Americans more control over, and access to, healthcare with affordable and portable free-market solutions.

If he makes it illegal to get healthcare because you don’t care about your health in the first place, now that would make it affordable.

  1. I will increase adoptions, decrease abortions, and protect the quality of life for our children.

And his first step I am sure would be to allow gay parents to adopt. I can tell him how to decrease abortions, cut funding for abstinence only sex education and teach kids what the hell is going on down there.

Cos, and maybe my logic is off, but if you aren’t getting pregnant you won’t be having an abortion now will you. As for adoption and children stuff, people always say that, “for the children” is the rallying cry for almost every nutjob that wants to control what you can read / watch / do / enjoy.

  1. I will reform the legal system and appoint strict constructionist judges.

I bet you will Rudy.

  1. I will ensure that every community in America is prepared for terrorist attacks and natural disasters.

Should I expect the concentration camp in a cornfield in Ohio sometime circa 2010? Start by fixing FEMA and Homeland Security, then we can talk.

  1. I will provide access to a quality education to every child in America by giving real school choice to parents.

Maybe start by giving children real education instead of preparing for a battery of standardized tests.

  1. I will expand America’s involvement in the global economy and strengthen our reputation around the world.

Shit, you really like a friggin challenge don’t you?

From:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1849065/posts

I’d be interested in hearing from my fellow Good Guys.

I’d even like to draw out the snakes (bradley, lumpy, renny, etc…) So far their objections to him have been weak and easily overcome. However, if there is something effective, I’d like to hear it here first so that I can develop a devastating counter.

Thanks in advance,

JeffR

I don’t know how the hell you can develop a devastating counter when most of us can’t even develop devastating arguments. His commitments are so broad and open-ended it is ridiculous. Once he starts adding more substance to each one then we can go at it, and it will be glorious. Until then we will paint the worst case scenario, you will paint the brightest, and we will all wait in awe to see how he plans to mastermind these ideas.

Until he actually backs up his commitments with well laid out thoughts and plans I WILL dismiss them as rosy sweet-talk that every politician uses to get votes.

I still remember Nelson Mandela promising everyone in South Africa running water, electricity, and sewage back in '94, empty promises never get you very far.[/quote]

renny,

Did I read that correctly, you are a non-citizen?

It helps me understand your perspective a little more in that case.

JeffR

[quote]kroby wrote:
If he does half the things on this list, it will be twice as much as the last two presidents had done.

All I ask for in a president is the strength of personal convictions, the power to enact them, and the ability to shame the rest of the government to do what’s right for the majority of americans. A popular dictator that will leave after eight (hell, or four) years. I mean, hey, if Iran, Venezuela, et. al. can have theirs, why can’t we?[/quote]

Kroby,

Interesting post. I’m reading the dictator stuff as tongue in cheek.

Am I correct?

If not, please expand upon it.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I’m actually surprised I’m the only Good Guy on this forum pushing hard for Rudy.[/quote]

Here’s another Good Guy™ to push with you.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
renny,

Did I read that correctly, you are a non-citizen?

It helps me understand your perspective a little more in that case.

JeffR

[/quote]

Ya, I have stated multiple times that I am a [LEGAL] immigrant and have my green card through the virtue of almost 8 years of blood sweat and tears and the parts of myself and my family.

And before you ask, yes, I plan on getting my citizenship, only 4 more years before I can apply, or is it 3, its a while to go still.

I bet you can guess my stance on amnesty to illegals.

But back to the Rudy issues. Are the commitments nothing more than flowery prose at this point?? I have heard a lot of the same from many of the candidates on both sides of the aisle. But unless he has solid plans for each idea, I think the commitments might hurt more than help him. How much of this have we heard before already?

[quote]renny wrote:
JeffR wrote:
renny,

Did I read that correctly, you are a non-citizen?

It helps me understand your perspective a little more in that case.

JeffR

Ya, I have stated multiple times that I am a [LEGAL] immigrant and have my green card through the virtue of almost 8 years of blood sweat and tears and the parts of myself and my family.

And before you ask, yes, I plan on getting my citizenship, only 4 more years before I can apply, or is it 3, its a while to go still.

I bet you can guess my stance on amnesty to illegals.

But back to the Rudy issues. Are the commitments nothing more than flowery prose at this point?? I have heard a lot of the same from many of the candidates on both sides of the aisle. But unless he has solid plans for each idea, I think the commitments might hurt more than help him. How much of this have we heard before already?[/quote]

Hey, renny.

You and I don’t agree on much. However, I think regarding illegal immigration we have some common ground.

Second, strong work in your personal life. I have zero problem with immigrants playing by the rules and earning citizenship.

Good for you.

Third, I agree that the specifics are not listed. This is his broad covenant with the people.

He has promised specifics.

If he seems like he has a credible plan and appears dedicated to curbing illegal immigration, would you think about voting for him?

JeffR

I think Rudy has a fine list of principles, but they don’t differ from any other Republican candidate. I mean, which Republican candidate would have a different “general principles” list?

(except Ron Paul, who has become the new New Thing among faux-pissy youngsters mad at their parents)

The key will be distinctions: for example, “staying on offense” is a great tactic. But how? I want to see where the candidates differ on such an issue. If it means treating the conflict with Islamism as something more than a criminal justice matter or a foreign aid matter (which is frightening), that is good - but what are the details?

This list isn’t much of a step going for or against Rudy - it is too generic.

[quote]pookie wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I’m actually surprised I’m the only Good Guy on this forum pushing hard for Rudy.

Here’s another Good Guy™ to push with you.
[/quote]

Several weeks back the following exchange occurred.

I asked.

To which pookie replied:

[quote]In my opinion, no. They’re weapons of terror. They scare a lot of people, but they don’t kill or destroy much.

Quick distribution of iodine pills will go a long way in preventing long term effects such as cancers.[/quote]

As far as I can tell, pookie has never apologized for nor amended that staggeringly insensitive and factually wrong statement.

Until this happens, said poster should realize that he won’t be taken seriously. Further, responses to him will probably be few and far between outside of Canada, sweden, or austria.

JeffR

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.