T Nation

Rubber Guard and Eddie Bravo

i’m a new BJJ player but have reading about the game and following it since 93’, familiar w/ great player s like Marcelo Garcia, Drysdale, and others.

point is am just beginning classes and imagine i’ll get to know all of my classmates by the smell of their sacks, as i will certainly be triangled to death in the weeks ahead.

I’d rather learn quickly and methodically as opposed to just rolling and trying to muscle around on the mat. i’m cool w/ drilling the shit out of stuff as opposed to just rollin’ blindly.

Q: I’d rather train no gi because collar chokes and such don’t thrill me. I’ve heard gi is key to a solid fundamentals in your game. is this correct? can i train both, when/how soon should i incorporate no gi to my training.

Q: can i learn the new stuff in rubber guard; mission control to zombie, chill dog to NY to jiu claw in tandem w/ traditional stuff? Subs like straight jacket, a variance sub to a gogo gone bad are sick. while i’m learning i want to study and learn some variances in technique/subs to the tradition ones, hopefully catching people w/ a few in-between my million and one taps.

Q: Also knee pads, patella open or not. Do any of you where ankle and/or calve sleeves for grip. opinions please.

Thank you feed back would be great.

just re-read my shit and i sound like a tool box. i’ll paraphrase the shit.

Gi is the way to go but the no gi shit looks slick can i train both right off the bat?

Eddie bravo’s shit looks tight can a noob learn rubber guard shit simultaneously to traditional stuff or will it in essence impede progress.

pad questions too.

Yes you can learn no-gi game at the same time as gi. I don’t see why you HAVE to wear a gi to create solid fundamentals.

And, yes, you can definetly learn rubber guard at the same time as any other ‘traditional’ methods. In fact, Bravo suggests that the new generation of BJJ artists will learn some of his techniques originally and be better for it. I’ll dig around and see if I can find that video…

thanks i’m itching for info., replys. i’m working on my mobility and stretching daily; hopefully w/in a few months i will be able to get into lotus pose and eventually w/out my hands to help. i can dream right?

Get your mobility up and you can have a sick 10th planet game.

IMO and I don’t just say this lightly… 10th planetJJ is what Brazilian jiujitsu was to judo all those years ago after count koma taught the gracie brothers and they developed it on their own.

Give it 5-10 years, you’re going to get smoked if you don’t know how to avoid rubberguard, or see the electric chair coming.

It’ll become basic stuff that EVERYONE knows or is at the very least preparing to defend.

It’s going to be a beautiful thing to see that blended with a more aggressive wrestling based top game.

Anyway, even eddie says though that you need that older shit… you need to be able to float back and forth between both to fuck with someone and then get back to the game plan/map (if you look at the front of “mastering the rubberguard” (or twister) the game plan is laid out… fyi lloyd irvin (i think they’re still the top bjj competition team) has charts like that too he just doesn’t publicize his and they’re for regular jj… eddie’s just so confident in the system he kind of dares you to try and learn it and counter it (and if you do it just makes them better when they find a solution to your counter).

It’s (again) just my personal opinion that you do NOT need to train the gi… at all.

yea i said it.

but of course you’ll need to drill your ass off, slow the fuck down when you roll, and learn proper technique not utilizing athleticism so you can develop proper habits.

The problem?

no one does this…

the other problem?

99% chance you will not find a partner willing to slow down either.

I noticed this even in boxing etc, no one wants to spar at 1/2 pace to just eventually build up your reaction time. Same thing with free rolling, no one wants to develop… oh No no,it’s fucking abu dhabi/lumpinee/pride grand prix night and they’re going balls to the wall.

STRIP THE FUCKING EGO and you can accomplish more training strictly no-gi than you can doing both.

But for the most part at 90% of bjj schools you will NEED to train the gi because it’s the only time that you can get guys to train at a 1/2 pace necessary to develop kinesthetic touch, reaction time, & work integrating your ‘gameplan’ into muscle memory.

So what I would do, unless you’re at a 10th planet affiliate… Train both gi and no gi. Spend most of your time in the gi… when you do train no gi, go ahead and work the rubber guard stuff on the newer guys… or guys who suck compared to you then start moving onto the harder guys…

If you want some shit to roll with and don’t feel like wearing full on tights… I roll with my No-Gi shorts and these:

http://www.skins.net/us/en/Products/BioAcceleration_Technology/sport/sox

Honestly I’d probably fight in some shit like shinya aoki lol I have buff thighs though so I can get away with it from an aesthetic standpoint.

First Rainbow tights FTW.

I will go on out and say Train first with the Gi.
Why?
No true MA mumbo Jumbo- just learn to respect the Gi.
Build your work habits out of the Gi.

You will develop basics of posture out of the Gi.
And most beginners need to move at a slower pace to get some muscle memory going…

Unless you have the discipline that many beginners lack- to train with out the Gi
as though the Gi is present.
I find (judo) the respect for Gi
brings respect to the matt- how you learn
to how you play, or Roll. It gives a formalness to what you learning.

Unless your teacher has a very structured No Gi program , it will look like HS wrestling practice prety quick as Xen said

I am Far far more of a Judo player.
My Gi gagme on the feet is deadly on the ground and off my back, good.
But Im stiff, so I am more rigid from Judo,
not as Fluid as the younguns.

All the rigidness of the Gi will inspire
your no gi game, particular in the beginning.
You mentioned structure, and not wanting to
muscle they you will need the structure of the Gi.

Xen ( as per usual) is solid with his advice…
In the begining you will need the Gi
to learn at 1/2 or 1/4 speed.

Yeah I just read this I sound like Pat Morita…

But really the Gi will loan the Base of Posture that you will need
and make your Grip like the grip of Death.

go shake a Judo Players hand and see…

PS XEN in aoki tights double FTW

kmc

Props to Xen and KMC for their posts.

I’ve been lucky to be trained directly by two Master level BJJ guys since 98. In fact, owned schools with one of them…

If you want a truly tight, technical game, you DO need to train with the gi. It will heighten your sensitivities to incoming attacks, and you will absolutely be more technical, simply because there are infinitely more ways that you can get caught; as there are infinitely more ways that you can catch someone else. All of that does transfer over into a no-gi game, but it doesn’t go no-gi to gi.

The other way to be at the top of your game is to pay attention to a lot of the aspects of what Eddie Bravo has brought about. He is certainly an innovator. He has gone out on a high note as far as competition goes, but his philosophies are excellent.

Depending on your training frequency it should be no problem to add one day of gi training into your training mix. Sadly, the technical level of a large part of the BJJ community has dropped to awful levels in the past several years, and it coincides directly in the drop in gi training. Gi training isn’t as trendy, so our ADHD infected demographic doesn’t have the attention span to learn the super technical stuff.

Because of the guys that I’ve been trained by, I’ve been able to train with the who’s who in Brazil. The uber technical guys still train gi, without fail.

Beyond all of that, learn that the winning game is all about position, position, position. It is great to have an encyclopedic knowledge of subs, but if you cannot gain position, you cannot use them. Know as many reversals as you can remember, cold; these will get you position. Know your defenses to the standard attacks that any BJJ white or blue belt will hit you with. Most guys who go active on the mats don’t go above those levels when the pressure is on. Then know five or six attacks from the top and bottom. You will always resort to the same group of attacks, for years to come.

The other aspect that is overwhelmingly NOT taught as it should be, is the stand up aspects of BJJ. This is grossly overlooked!!! A good BJJ guy needs to be able, at a minimum to defend against a Judo player and wrestlers, most cannot do that effectively other than dropping to the backs in the guard; which is just pathetic. You need to be able to nail all of the basic wrestling take downs and take down defenses with gi and no gi. And you need at least five judo throws and defenses.

The number is somewhat subjective, but knowing that amount of technique is at least a good basis on which to attack and defend from the feet.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
but of course you’ll need to drill your ass off, slow the fuck down when you roll, and learn proper technique not utilizing athleticism so you can develop proper habits.

The problem?

no one does this…

the other problem?

99% chance you will not find a partner willing to slow down either.

I noticed this even in boxing etc, no one wants to spar at 1/2 pace to just eventually build up your reaction time. Same thing with free rolling, no one wants to develop… oh No no,it’s fucking abu dhabi/lumpinee/pride grand prix night and they’re going balls to the wall.

STRIP THE FUCKING EGO and you can accomplish more training strictly no-gi than you can doing both.
[/quote]

Quoted for truth.

Too many people just want to get in there and roll, no one wants to take their time to truly master the fundamentals/techniques.

One of my buddies is a wrestling coach and decent amatuer wrestler and we’ve kind of agreed to trade information. I’m teaching him striking, and submissions, and he’s helping me with my takedowns/defense and wrestling.

The thing is that even when I am just trying to demonstrate a submission to him, he’s trying to defend it. So of course I flow to whatever he gives me and wind up in a completely different submission. Which doesn’t really help him (or another friend of ours who has been joining in the training sessions) at all.

And doesn’t really help me either as I’m already aware that I can flow through submissions; but I was trying to demonstrate how to do a specific one so they could practice it and get good at it.

The same is true with the striking. Everyone wants to throw bombs, but no one is willing to take the time to really master how to throw the strikes correctly. So they wind up muscling the punches, being off balance when they throw them, and being very tight and therefore slow.

Now I understand why Joe Lewis says that power is the last thing he teaches people, and why it’s so rare to see someone with truly noteworthy fundamentals.

I have done little no-gi, maybe 1 out of every 50 classes . But I feel that the Gi translates fine to no-Gi and I’ve heard repeatedly that the other is not the case.

Learn what you want, probably the best thing you can do is pick a few things that feel right for you, maybe only one thing and work hard on that, like one submission.

Competency in one thing will lead to being competent in others.

I’ve heard volleyball pads work great for knee pads. Good luck.

[quote]Bram Wiley wrote:
I have done little no-gi, maybe 1 out of every 50 classes . But I feel that the Gi translates fine to no-Gi and I’ve heard repeatedly that the other is not the case.
[/quote]

True, but unless you plan on competing in gi, why should it matter?

I’m not saying that training with the gi is a bad thing, I’ve done it a few times myself. But why not train specifically for what your needs are.

If you want to compete in gi grappling, then you’ve got to train it. No-gi, you’ve got to train it. Reality ground fighting, you’ve got to train it. MMA grappling, you’ve got to train it. etc…

A lot of wrestlers are excellent at positioning, transitions, and just all around ground fighting, and they never train with a gi. But clearly their training prepares them well for MMA and even submission grappling, if they learn the submission game as well.

Agreed.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

True, but unless you plan on competing in gi, why should it matter?

I’m not saying that training with the gi is a bad thing, I’ve done it a few times myself. But why not train specifically for what your needs are.

If you want to compete in gi grappling, then you’ve got to train it. No-gi, you’ve got to train it. Reality ground fighting, you’ve got to train it. MMA grappling, you’ve got to train it. etc…

A lot of wrestlers are excellent at positioning, transitions, and just all around ground fighting, and they never train with a gi. But clearly their training prepares them well for MMA and even submission grappling, if they learn the submission game as well.
[/quote]

I do not want to get sucked into this argument :smiley:

short disclaimer: this rant isn’t about anyone who posted on this thread. Most people on this thread aren’t even rolling for MMA purposes… I just wanted to address this point for anyone lurking and clarify my position on the aforementioned.

If you train the gi, and go to no-gi you’ll be fine with most BJJ guys, it crosses over pretty well. But the moment you face someone who’s had a bit of wrestling experience you’ll see the difference in the space they give you, weight distribution and just overall ferocity. It’s vastly different from the gi-world.

I can demonstrate how loosey-goosey most people’s grappling game is by doing one thing.

ROLL WITH STRIKES ALLOWED

this is probably my biggest gripe with the way most people teach BJJ… ESPECIALLY for MMA…They roll like they forget that I CAN HIT THEM.

Start rolling with an opponent trying to hit you and drop a few short elbows (have him wear elbow pads duh), and you start to realize that playing double wrist control, and letting him posture up is going to get you killed.

A lot of ground guys don’t want to admit it but in modern mma THE GUARD IS A DEFENSIVE POSITION. Unless you’re last name is Nogueria, when someone is in your guard you are in vast danger… and even if you are dangerous you’ll take a LOT of damage attempting your subs (example: damn near ANY recent mma fight).

The way that you get a grip on your opponent from just slipping away (no-gi) and stop him from hitting you (MMA) is under/over hooks.

You can’t play your guard game game loose, you have to play it like fucking greco roman wrestling REALLY tight.

Which is what the rubber guard was utilized for… Breakdown his posture, and CLINCH,with an effective offensive game plan so that you took away your opponents offensive strategy (hit) and HE is now on the defensive and is responding to YOU. So then you bait him, create a reaction, and exploit it…

Basically, if you’re going to train specifically for no-gi competitions. I ENCOURAGE you to get in a good bit of Gi time, probably 1/2 and 1/2 right now if you can. If you can’t fuck it go all gi for a while… but REALIZE that you will HAVE to change your game and get waaaaaay tighter than you are used to with the gi. You can either make that adjustment RIGHT AWAY and play a close gi game (risk get clock choke tho) and then transition to a good no-gi game, or just recognize things in the gi you can’t do in no-gi w/o getting your shit ruined.

[quote]Bram Wiley wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

True, but unless you plan on competing in gi, why should it matter?

I’m not saying that training with the gi is a bad thing, I’ve done it a few times myself. But why not train specifically for what your needs are.

If you want to compete in gi grappling, then you’ve got to train it. No-gi, you’ve got to train it. Reality ground fighting, you’ve got to train it. MMA grappling, you’ve got to train it. etc…

A lot of wrestlers are excellent at positioning, transitions, and just all around ground fighting, and they never train with a gi. But clearly their training prepares them well for MMA and even submission grappling, if they learn the submission game as well.

I do not want to get sucked into this argument :smiley:

[/quote]

I don’t see why it’s an argument. No one is saying that training the gi is a bad thing. All I’m saying is that it isn’t necessary to train with a gi in order to become a world class no-gi grappler. If people like to do it and find benefit in it, kudos to them. But anyone actually suggesting that olympic level wrestlers aren’t highly technical or skilled grapplers is viewing things through a very narrow lense.

Might they not be the best submission guys in the world? No, they’re not. But that just again goes to show that specificity is important. And while the submission game is an integral part of MMA, there have been a number of champions who aren’t JJ world champions (and have beaten JJ world champions) but were good grapplers (in terms of controlling their opponents) nonetheless.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I don’t see why it’s an argument. No one is saying that training the gi is a bad thing. All I’m saying is that it isn’t necessary to train with a gi in order to become a world class no-gi grappler. If people like to do it and find benefit in it, kudos to them. But anyone actually suggesting that olympic level wrestlers aren’t highly technical or skilled grapplers is viewing things through a very narrow lense.

Might they not be the best submission guys in the world? No, they’re not. But that just again goes to show that specificity is important. And while the submission game is an integral part of MMA, there have been a number of champions who aren’t JJ world champions (and have beaten JJ world champions) but were good grapplers (in terms of controlling their opponents) nonetheless.[/quote]

I don’t know, you don’t know. Roger Gracie swears by the Gi, he’s a recent BJJ and No-Gi absolute world champion. There are others who agree with him. Maybe there are other people who see it the other way.

MMA is different.

Much respect to wrestlers and Judoka’s.

Right. Pisses me off when people 1) think rubber guard is all eddie says you need, or 2) think grabbing your fucking ankle is rubber guard.

I play rubber guard. If i can’t get mission control because the guy’s posture is too good, i’m back into closed guard to break his posture down, going for regular kimoras or gullitines. or maybe i go to open guard, get underhooks, and go for a sweep.

rubber guard is just another component to the guard.

but if you have the guy broken down, why wouldn’t you use mission control? doesn’t make sense to me. you need an option for every position/angle.

thanks for the 10th planet stuff
I wish I could get limbereere

Its true use it all
as much as I like to get my kodokan on
how cool it is to say gangster lean
hi rise I want him to name one the projects

Here is the deal
when I finally got to greco
and could remain upright and use those judo skills
I was like WTF is the GI!

Grips pummeling fighting hand battles
slippery arms, dudes with stubble, or beards
or even dreads or chest hair
(nasteee when its not yours)
It gave me a whole new appreciation for the Gi

What I could now do with the Gi.
what I wanted to do with the Gi

forward back to the Gi
Shit is like armor I like doubles
on your back its nice protects me
keeps me scratch free.
you want my lapels go ahead they are fucking rugged
Sombo goes so far as to put EXTRA handles on it

and at the same time.
Its an enemy- its too FUCKING suffocating restrictive gets caught on my ear, thumb, heel, it bellows open rubs my neck
but that suffering is what gets the wheels spinning to roll without

its not about which is better
(past the beginner stage)
its about why NOT do both.

for the MMA board short dudes…
Switch it up…
for the gisters I guess rainbow tights are in oder…

on a side Xen you need to start a thread about rolling with strikes.

Its good. I want to see hitting pads on the ground more too…

kmc

Q: Do you guys know of additional places online to gain BJJ info., forums videos, etc… i’ve watched a ton of youtube stuff, i recognizing there is no substitute to training and competition however i enjoying reading and watching videos, in addition to training.

thanks w/ all sincerity

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:

Here is the deal
when I finally got to greco
and could remain upright and use those judo skills
I was like WTF is the GI!
[/quote]

True. thats why a lot of the Georgian wrestlers I believe train both judo and wrestling, so they have their wrestlers compete in judo as well. the standup portion of catch wrestling utilizes a lot of leg trips very similar to (if not EXACTLY like) things I’ve seen in judo.

I agree hahaha! That’s the one huge advantage of the gi, unfortunately though at least in no gi most guys will wear full rashguards, most people that train with a gi don’t wear anything underneath it and thats when you get a facefull of chest hair!

once more I agree. It’s really about is it worth it to divide your time between the two. And it is… is it necessary? no, but depending on your goals, priorities, and your needs then you can make a more educated decision.

I will do that. Rolling with strikes, especially in MMA, is fundamental. It adds a very dangerous dynamic to the ground game and changes the jujitsu rules almost completely and explains why wrestlers tended to do better in mma more so than straight bjj guys (debatable point, I know… subject for a whole other thread really.) Being on the bottom is automatically a defensive position and outside of a VERY tight guard game, you’re in danger of taking serious damage.

I had a short discussion with a friend recently about utilizing wing chun style trapping from the mount position to improve your striking (control your opponents arms from protecting him) apparently my friend had already been playing with it (for years hah) but I came to the conclusion after watching the Florian/Lauzon fight. I believe that the level of striking on the ground can be brought up quite a bit, from what i’ve seen Erik Paulson actually has developed a few systems specifically for that.

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:
Q: Do you guys know of additional places online to gain BJJ info., forums videos, etc… i’ve watched a ton of youtube stuff, i recognizing there is no substitute to training and competition however i enjoying reading and watching videos, in addition to training.

thanks w/ all sincerity [/quote]

Best place imo

I’m PM’ing this to you but just wanted to share it with everyone else too