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Rows Sufficient for Lat Development?

I’m considering doing the StrongLifts 5x5 workout routine to build a foundation of strength. I noticed there weren’t any vertical lat movement, e.g. chin-ups. Instead, you’d only do barbell rows. So here’s my question:
Are rows sufficient for lat development?

When looking at the StrongLifts routine, there’s an imbalance at that exact point:

Squat: vertical pushing movement
Deadlift: vertical pulling movement

Bench press: horizontal pushing movement
Row: horizontal pulling movement

Press: vertical pushing movement
Vertical pulling imbalance

I was thinking of doing a variation of the routine where I’d incorporate chin-ups or supinated narrow-grip lat pulldowns. After all, I’ve kept hearing that rows build thickness, whilst pulldowns/pull-ups build width. There just seems to be an imbalance at that point, wouldn’t it be a smart idea to incorporate such a movement?

I think its safe to say if you’re concerned about your lat development that you should be doing a chin/pulldown variation consistently every week.

Strong lifts is a rip off of starting strength, the program is
workout A: 3X5 squat, 3X5 bench, 3X5 pendlay row (power clean actually)
rest a day
workout B: 3X5 squat, 3X5 over head press, 1X5 deadlift
rest a day
workout A
rest a day,
rest a day,
workout B,
rest a day,
workout A,
rest a day,
workout B,
rest a day,
rest a day and repeat the cycle.

If you want to balance it a little some rear deltoid work can be added as optional. However the pendlay rows, and deadlifts is enough for the lats. http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki Read this site, and possibly even buy the book if you plan on running it.

[quote]DSSG wrote:
Strong lifts is a rip off of starting strength, the program is
workout A: 3X5 squat, 3X5 bench, 3X5 pendlay row (power clean actually)
rest a day
workout B: 3X5 squat, 3X5 over head press, 1X5 deadlift
rest a day
workout A
rest a day,
rest a day,
workout B,
rest a day,
workout A,
rest a day,
workout B,
rest a day,
rest a day and repeat the cycle. If you want to balance it a little some rear deltoid work can be added as optional. However the pendlay rows, and deadlifts is enough for the lats. http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki Read this site, and possibly even buy the book if you plan on running it. [/quote]
I own the 3rd edition of the Starting Strength book as a pdf (praise the Internet!). But again, my real concern was about sufficient development. Are rows really enough? Do they build a considerable amount of width compared to pulldowns/pull-ups?

[quote]labean wrote:

[quote]DSSG wrote:
Strong lifts is a rip off of starting strength, the program is
workout A: 3X5 squat, 3X5 bench, 3X5 pendlay row (power clean actually)
rest a day
workout B: 3X5 squat, 3X5 over head press, 1X5 deadlift
rest a day
workout A
rest a day,
rest a day,
workout B,
rest a day,
workout A,
rest a day,
workout B,
rest a day,
rest a day and repeat the cycle. If you want to balance it a little some rear deltoid work can be added as optional. However the pendlay rows, and deadlifts is enough for the lats. http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki Read this site, and possibly even buy the book if you plan on running it. [/quote]
I own the 3rd edition of the Starting Strength book as a pdf (praise the Internet!). But again, my real concern was about sufficient development. Are rows really enough? Do they build a considerable amount of width compared to pulldowns/pull-ups?[/quote]
The teres major contributes to making the lats look wider, it will still get trained from heavy deadlifts, and somewhat from rows, but not as much as you would with pull ups. If you are doing it purely for physique then sure do some, but your lats, whole trapezius, rhomboids, and erector spinae will be trained with or without pull ups or pulldowns.

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
I think its safe to say if you’re concerned about your lat development that you should be doing a chin/pulldown variation consistently every week.[/quote]

Second on this.

The back has so many muscles it’s ridiculous. For full developement you want to do verticle and horizontal pulls at every angle width and variation you can think of(pulling diagonally, to the face, chest, bellybutton.)

You don’t have to do a million variations every workout or every week, just over time as you develop and get bigger remember this.

looks like you wanna build some muscle, if so stronglifts its not ideal

[quote]Matias A. wrote:
looks like you wanna build some muscle, if so stronglifts its not ideal[/quote]
I do in the long run, but I might do some powerlifting-style/strength training first.

Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift[/quote]
Why both a pull up and pull down variation? Wouldn’t just one be sufficient?

At the moment, I usually do one-arm dumbbell rows, rope face pulls and narrow-grip supinated lat pulldowns and deadlifts for my back.

[quote]labean wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift[/quote]
Why both a pull up and pull down variation? Wouldn’t just one be sufficient?

At the moment, I usually do one-arm dumbbell rows, rope face pulls and narrow-grip supinated lat pulldowns and deadlifts for my back. [/quote]

I think pulldowns are easier for building MMC or going light and maintaining good form and pull-ups are better for focusing on moving more weight

one is definitely more stressful than the other kinda like the difference between doing leg presses and squats

[quote]labean wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift[/quote]
Why both a pull up and pull down variation? Wouldn’t just one be sufficient?

[/quote]

Pull ups = more teres major involvement, which = wider looking lats near the top. (IIRC)

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Pull ups = more teres major involvement, which = wider looking lats near the top. (IIRC)
[/quote]

I don’t think the teres major matter that much. Look at the size of them. Besides, I don’t think that you don’t hit them on pulldowns, anyway. Not sure, though :slight_smile:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]labean wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift[/quote]
Why both a pull up and pull down variation? Wouldn’t just one be sufficient?

[/quote]

Pull ups = more teres major involvement, which = wider looking lats near the top. (IIRC)
[/quote]

nice! Can’t believe I never thought of that. I’ve always done one or the other but now I’m definitely going to use both.

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[quote]labean wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Pull ups = more teres major involvement, which = wider looking lats near the top. (IIRC)
[/quote]

I don’t think the teres major matter that much. Look at the size of them. Besides, I don’t think that you don’t hit them on pulldowns, anyway. Not sure, though :)[/quote]

Have you looked at the guy who’s giving advice? haha it’s free, you should take it.

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift[/quote]

Just trying to understand the difference between a “lat row” and an “upper back row”.

From a movement standpoint, is it basically “pull to the waist” versus “pull to the chest”?

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift[/quote]

Just trying to understand the difference between a “lat row” and an “upper back row”.

From a movement standpoint, is it basically “pull to the waist” versus “pull to the chest”?[/quote]
Think of a yates row, rowing to mid or lower stomach with elbows tucked, vs a face pull, or an extremely wide grip row (think a snatch grip) to upper stomach/sternum with elbows flared.

[quote]DSSG wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift[/quote]

Just trying to understand the difference between a “lat row” and an “upper back row”.

From a movement standpoint, is it basically “pull to the waist” versus “pull to the chest”?[/quote]
Think of a yates row, rowing to mid or lower stomach with elbows tucked, vs a face pull, or an extremely wide grip row (think a snatch grip) to upper stomach/sternum with elbows flared. [/quote]

Thanks. That’s what I was thinking.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]DSSG wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Recipe for complete back development:

Pull up variation
Pull down variation
Lat row variation
Upper back row
Deadlift[/quote]

Just trying to understand the difference between a “lat row” and an “upper back row”.

From a movement standpoint, is it basically “pull to the waist” versus “pull to the chest”?[/quote]
Think of a yates row, rowing to mid or lower stomach with elbows tucked, vs a face pull, or an extremely wide grip row (think a snatch grip) to upper stomach/sternum with elbows flared. [/quote]

Thanks. That’s what I was thinking.[/quote]

Yeah, lat row is any row where you pull your elbows back along side your body and upper back row = pull with your elbows up high.