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Routine to Cut On: Madcow or 5/3/1?

Want a good routine to use for a “cut”?

The same routine that made you gain the most muscle :slight_smile:

You might want to consider ramping during fat loss. Check CTs thread out about it. It’s simple, but let me tell ya it can be as brutal.

Nice back development. How long you been at this?

[quote]zraw wrote:
Want a good routine to use for a “cut”?

The same routine that made you gain the most muscle :)[/quote]

Lol true, would be nice but I don’t have time to do PHAT anymore :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]bpick86 wrote:
Nice back development. How long you been at this?[/quote]

Hard to say, maybe 2 years? Dunno really

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

You might want to consider ramping during fat loss. Check CTs thread out about it. It’s simple, but let me tell ya it can be as brutal.[/quote]

Madcow is ramping

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

You might want to consider ramping during fat loss. Check CTs thread out about it. It’s simple, but let me tell ya it can be as brutal.[/quote]

Madcow is ramping [/quote]

Is it, ooopss, like I said I don’t know anything about Madcow.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

You might want to consider ramping during fat loss. Check CTs thread out about it. It’s simple, but let me tell ya it can be as brutal.[/quote]

Madcow is ramping [/quote]

Is it, ooopss, like I said I don’t know anything about Madcow. [/quote]

No problem man

I’ll probably get flak for this, but you may want to check out John Roman’s Five Principals for Radical Fat Loss. (http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_five_principles_of_radical_fat_loss)

I used it last year with great success with a starting place pretty close to you. I went from 13.5% to under 8% (my own caliper readings, so not saying it’s 100% accurate) in 5 weeks with 10 lbs lost, 2" off my waist and no muscle loss that I could discern. It is not, in any way, a strength routine…there is only one “heavy” day per week. It’s basically a get-in-and-get-out grind as there is HIIT, complexes, SS cardio and BW exercises with circuits making up most the workouts. And there are two (short) workouts most days. :slight_smile:

Again, not for everyone, but very effective for me. I didn’t track strength per se, but whatever I might have lost I made up quickly when I was done.

Ó tuga…531 is a fine choice no matter how much you’re lifting. Maybe don’t push your last set too much and stay on the prescribed number of reps every now and then…keep assistance work to a minimum.

Another thing: I personally enjoy bodyweight exercises during a cut, I find it helps keep muscularity while trimming fat. There’s something to be said about increasing your pullup numbers, if nothing else at least helps with your ego, you know, when all the other lifts are stuck or going down.

[quote]knee-gro wrote:
Ã? tuga…531 is a fine choice no matter how much you’re lifting. Maybe don’t push your last set too much and stay on the prescribed number of reps every now and then…keep assistance work to a minimum.

Another thing: I personally enjoy bodyweight exercises during a cut, I find it helps keep muscularity while trimming fat. There’s something to be said about increasing your pullup numbers, if nothing else at least helps with your ego, you know, when all the other lifts are stuck or going down.[/quote]

Hehe ora boas, obrigado pelo feed,
I’ve decided to go with 5/3/1 simply because since the progression is slower it will be easier to keep it up while on a calorie deficit, whereas Madcow might mess up my numbers and lead me nowhere. 5/3/1 also has the advantage of incorporated conditioning and flexibility and that’ll probably help too. Overall sounds great. I’ll do Madcow on my next bulk.

Only thing that I don’t like about 5/3/1 are the 5x10 deadlifts, wouldn’t it be better to do something like 8x3 or 6x4?

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

Only thing that I don’t like about 5/3/1 are the 5x10 deadlifts, wouldn’t it be better to do something like 8x3 or 6x4?[/quote]

I don’t remember this being a part of the program. This is the actual Wendler versions right? I know I bought the original ebook so maybe there have been some changes.

5X10 deads are going to be VERY hard to recover from, imo assuming this is after you deadlift using the 5/3/1 rep scheme, is that right?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

Only thing that I don’t like about 5/3/1 are the 5x10 deadlifts, wouldn’t it be better to do something like 8x3 or 6x4?[/quote]

I don’t remember this being a part of the program. This is the actual Wendler versions right? I know I bought the original ebook so maybe there have been some changes.

5X10 deads are going to be VERY hard to recover from, imo assuming this is after you deadlift using the 5/3/1 rep scheme, is that right?[/quote]

Yeah man, boring but big template:

Squat Day
Squat: 5x10x50%
Leg Curls: 5x10

Bench Press Day
Bench Press: 5x10x50%
DB Rows: 5x10

Deadlift Day
Deadlift: 5x10x50% -> I don’t like this lol, form will become bad at 5th rep.
Hanging Leg Raises: 5x12

Mil. Press Day
Mil. Press: 5x10x50%
Chins: 5 sets to failure.

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

Only thing that I don’t like about 5/3/1 are the 5x10 deadlifts, wouldn’t it be better to do something like 8x3 or 6x4?[/quote]

I don’t remember this being a part of the program. This is the actual Wendler versions right? I know I bought the original ebook so maybe there have been some changes.

5X10 deads are going to be VERY hard to recover from, imo assuming this is after you deadlift using the 5/3/1 rep scheme, is that right?[/quote]

Yeah man, boring but big template:

Squat Day
Squat: 5x10x50%
Leg Curls: 5x10

Bench Press Day
Bench Press: 5x10x50%
DB Rows: 5x10

Deadlift Day
Deadlift: 5x8x50% -> I don’t like this lol, form will become bad at 5th rep.
Hanging Leg Raises: 5x12

Mil. Press Day
Mil. Press: 5x10x50%
Chins: 5 sets to failure.[/quote]

You can do what you want, but I don’t think this template goes with cutting. If you cut right you can maintain and maybe increase muscle mass. This is debated all the time here. Personally I think you’d be better off trying to maintain strength levels while cutting. I’d do CT’s routine which is more in line with 5/3/1 anyway.

  1. Ramp to 1RM
  2. 2 Cluster or straight sets with 90% of 1RM (3-5 reps)
  3. Back down to 70% and ramp to 2RM
  4. 2 Cluster or straight sets with 90% of your 2RM (3-5 reps)
  5. Back down to 70% and ramp to 3RM
  6. 1 extended HDL set (max/15 sec/max) with 80% of 3RM

You can do this all 4 days and if you feel like it add an accessory movement or two, but from personal experience I’m telling you recovery is much harder when you are eating less.

Your template above has a lot of volume is all I’m saying and you aren’t going to be eating enough calories to recover. I wouldn’t even call it 5/3/1 when the lowest you go is 8 reps…

But this template is the main one and the simplest one on the book. All the other ones have more volume I think… Aren’t you mistaken? Dave Tate Periodization Bible Template has 5 more sets everyday and Wendler says it’s also really good. I used to do PHAT and I had no problems with recovery… This is way less volume and frequency lol

Quote from the book:
“Boring But Big: Main lift, the main lift again @ 5x10 (50% 1RM), and another accessory exercise for 5 sets.”

[quote]Quantikz wrote:
But this template is the main one and the simplest one on the book. All the other ones have more volume I think… Aren’t you mistaken? Dave Tate Periodization Bible Template has 5 more sets everyday and Wendler says it’s also really good. I used to do PHAT and I had no problems with recovery… This is way less volume and frequency lol
[/quote]

Maybe Jim changed his book, but the original 5/3/1 is based off your 5 rep max, 3 rep max, and 1 rep max. I don’t have it on me so I can’t check it, but like I said I don’t remember anything like what you wrote. 50% for 8-10 reps is not a strength template. Check out the attached article below. THis is the setup he suggests in it:

Week 1 Week 2 Week 3 Week 4
Set 1 65% x 5 70% x 3 75% x 5 40% x 5
Set 2 75% x 5 80% x 3 85% x 3 50% x 5
Set 3 85% x 5+ 90% x 3+ 95% x 1+ 60% x 5

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Quantikz wrote:
But this template is the main one and the simplest one on the book. All the other ones have more volume I think… Aren’t you mistaken? Dave Tate Periodization Bible Template has 5 more sets everyday and Wendler says it’s also really good. I used to do PHAT and I had no problems with recovery… This is way less volume and frequency lol
[/quote]

Maybe Jim changed his book, but the original 5/3/1 is based off your 5 rep max, 3 rep max, and 1 rep max. I don’t have it on me so I can’t check it, but like I said I don’t remember anything like what you wrote. 50% for 8-10 reps is not a strength template. Check out the attached article below. THis is the setup he suggests in it:

Week 1 Week 2 Week 3 Week 4
Set 1 65% x 5 70% x 3 75% x 5 40% x 5
Set 2 75% x 5 80% x 3 85% x 3 50% x 5
Set 3 85% x 5+ 90% x 3+ 95% x 1+ 60% x 5

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength [/quote]

Oh, I found out the problem :stuck_out_tongue: I’m talking about the assistance work lol. I’ll do those lifts and percentages of course.
In that link he’s using the Triumvirate template. Here you go:

Boring But Big. Main lift, the main lift again @ 5x10 (50% 1RM), and another accessory exercise for 5 sets.
The Triumvirate. Main lift, and two assistance exercises - 5 sets each.
I’m Not Doing Jack Shit. Main lift, and nothing else.
Periodization Bible by Dave Tate. Main lift, and 3 exercises - 5 x 10-20 reps each.
Bodyweight. Main lift, and 2 bodyweight exercises such as the pull up, sit ups, dips, etc.

You can check it out here http://www.strstd.com/ , go on “My 5/3/1 Routine” and scroll down.

Gotcha. Well not to beat a dead horse, but that’s A LOT of volume during a cut.

If you are doing 5/3/1 deads even with just 5X10 @ 50% (50 reps) as accessory work and your pushing yourself that alone will stress the CNS quite a bit. And that’s only 1 day. Throw a squat, bench, and OHP day in on a caloric deficit, I wouldn’t want to be you.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
If you are doing 5/3/1 deads even with just 5X10 @ 50% (50 reps) as accessory work and your pushing yourself that alone will stress the CNS quite a bit. And that’s only 1 day. Throw a squat, bench, and OHP day in on a caloric deficit, I wouldn’t want to be you. [/quote]

Lol true man. I’ll try Triumvirate, sounds better. Will do something like this:

Press 5/3/1
Bench 5x10
Row 5x10

Deadlift 5/3/1
Front Squat 5x10 (or maybe good mornings or back squat, not sure yet)
Hanging Leg Raises 5x12

Bench 5/3/1
Press 5x10
Chins 5x10

Squat 5/3/1
Squat 5x10
Leg Curls 5x10

Looks good? I swapped the BBB assistance to double the frequency.