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Routine to Cut On: Madcow or 5/3/1?

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Want to echo the good info you’ve received from usmc above. If you’re going to do a cut involving a deep caloric deficit, your ability to recover will be significantly affected. So whatever training protocol you use, keep the volume low, and concentrate on keeping your strength. Good luck.[/quote]

Well I wouldn’t call it a deep caloric cut. I was thinking 2200kcal on training days and 2000kcal on off days. I’ve been doing 2000kcal everyday and I’m too tired so I might try that next week. In regards to the routine, madcow has me going up lifts every week and I don’t think I’ll keep up with it while cutting. 5/3/1 seems better for it actually… Feels like I’ll be able to keep more mass that way. I might be wrong tho
Thanks

Like everyone has said, you can do what you want with your body but I just thought you might appreciate some feedback from someone that was in your boat for a long time. My first year of college I got to a 180-185 lb body with 10-12% bf. I thought I could cut down for spring break and dropped into the upper single digits. For me, I was much happier with the way I looked and felt before the cut. Just kind of felt crappy and my muscles lost some of their fullness which gave me a scrawny look. Just me but you may find that you were happier with your slightly larger self. Hell, if your are naturally skinny muscular and can get your diet dialed in you can probably keep eating to grow and get bigger without really gaining any noticeable fat. Just a thought.

[quote]bpick86 wrote:
Like everyone has said, you can do what you want with your body but I just thought you might appreciate some feedback from someone that was in your boat for a long time. My first year of college I got to a 180-185 lb body with 10-12% bf. I thought I could cut down for spring break and dropped into the upper single digits. For me, I was much happier with the way I looked and felt before the cut. Just kind of felt crappy and my muscles lost some of their fullness which gave me a scrawny look. Just me but you may find that you were happier with your slightly larger self. Hell, if your are naturally skinny muscular and can get your diet dialed in you can probably keep eating to grow and get bigger without really gaining any noticeable fat. Just a thought.[/quote]

Thanks for the feed man. Last summer I was lean and imo I looked good enough, this year I’m bigger so I think it’s ok.

pic from last year (sorry, only one I have):

I still think that Madcow will destroy me at this rate so I might jump on 5/3/1 =| Another thing I could go is greyskull or SS but I dunno.

Any strength based program was really difficult for me to maintain in calorie deficit. But that’s me. I never spent any time in deficit after that first run at it and spent all my time with adjusting so that I could keep up just enough excess to add a pound or two a month. Stayed ripped by non tnationer standards kept getting bigger. As a bonus, I was tolerable to be around so I could actually get laid every now and then.

Want a good routine to use for a “cut”?

The same routine that made you gain the most muscle :slight_smile:

You might want to consider ramping during fat loss. Check CTs thread out about it. It’s simple, but let me tell ya it can be as brutal.

Nice back development. How long you been at this?

[quote]zraw wrote:
Want a good routine to use for a “cut”?

The same routine that made you gain the most muscle :)[/quote]

Lol true, would be nice but I don’t have time to do PHAT anymore :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]bpick86 wrote:
Nice back development. How long you been at this?[/quote]

Hard to say, maybe 2 years? Dunno really

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

You might want to consider ramping during fat loss. Check CTs thread out about it. It’s simple, but let me tell ya it can be as brutal.[/quote]

Madcow is ramping

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

You might want to consider ramping during fat loss. Check CTs thread out about it. It’s simple, but let me tell ya it can be as brutal.[/quote]

Madcow is ramping [/quote]

Is it, ooopss, like I said I don’t know anything about Madcow.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

You might want to consider ramping during fat loss. Check CTs thread out about it. It’s simple, but let me tell ya it can be as brutal.[/quote]

Madcow is ramping [/quote]

Is it, ooopss, like I said I don’t know anything about Madcow. [/quote]

No problem man

I’ll probably get flak for this, but you may want to check out John Roman’s Five Principals for Radical Fat Loss. (http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_five_principles_of_radical_fat_loss)

I used it last year with great success with a starting place pretty close to you. I went from 13.5% to under 8% (my own caliper readings, so not saying it’s 100% accurate) in 5 weeks with 10 lbs lost, 2" off my waist and no muscle loss that I could discern. It is not, in any way, a strength routine…there is only one “heavy” day per week. It’s basically a get-in-and-get-out grind as there is HIIT, complexes, SS cardio and BW exercises with circuits making up most the workouts. And there are two (short) workouts most days. :slight_smile:

Again, not for everyone, but very effective for me. I didn’t track strength per se, but whatever I might have lost I made up quickly when I was done.

Ó tuga…531 is a fine choice no matter how much you’re lifting. Maybe don’t push your last set too much and stay on the prescribed number of reps every now and then…keep assistance work to a minimum.

Another thing: I personally enjoy bodyweight exercises during a cut, I find it helps keep muscularity while trimming fat. There’s something to be said about increasing your pullup numbers, if nothing else at least helps with your ego, you know, when all the other lifts are stuck or going down.

[quote]knee-gro wrote:
Ã? tuga…531 is a fine choice no matter how much you’re lifting. Maybe don’t push your last set too much and stay on the prescribed number of reps every now and then…keep assistance work to a minimum.

Another thing: I personally enjoy bodyweight exercises during a cut, I find it helps keep muscularity while trimming fat. There’s something to be said about increasing your pullup numbers, if nothing else at least helps with your ego, you know, when all the other lifts are stuck or going down.[/quote]

Hehe ora boas, obrigado pelo feed,
I’ve decided to go with 5/3/1 simply because since the progression is slower it will be easier to keep it up while on a calorie deficit, whereas Madcow might mess up my numbers and lead me nowhere. 5/3/1 also has the advantage of incorporated conditioning and flexibility and that’ll probably help too. Overall sounds great. I’ll do Madcow on my next bulk.

Only thing that I don’t like about 5/3/1 are the 5x10 deadlifts, wouldn’t it be better to do something like 8x3 or 6x4?

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

Only thing that I don’t like about 5/3/1 are the 5x10 deadlifts, wouldn’t it be better to do something like 8x3 or 6x4?[/quote]

I don’t remember this being a part of the program. This is the actual Wendler versions right? I know I bought the original ebook so maybe there have been some changes.

5X10 deads are going to be VERY hard to recover from, imo assuming this is after you deadlift using the 5/3/1 rep scheme, is that right?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

Only thing that I don’t like about 5/3/1 are the 5x10 deadlifts, wouldn’t it be better to do something like 8x3 or 6x4?[/quote]

I don’t remember this being a part of the program. This is the actual Wendler versions right? I know I bought the original ebook so maybe there have been some changes.

5X10 deads are going to be VERY hard to recover from, imo assuming this is after you deadlift using the 5/3/1 rep scheme, is that right?[/quote]

Yeah man, boring but big template:

Squat Day
Squat: 5x10x50%
Leg Curls: 5x10

Bench Press Day
Bench Press: 5x10x50%
DB Rows: 5x10

Deadlift Day
Deadlift: 5x10x50% -> I don’t like this lol, form will become bad at 5th rep.
Hanging Leg Raises: 5x12

Mil. Press Day
Mil. Press: 5x10x50%
Chins: 5 sets to failure.

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Quantikz wrote:

Only thing that I don’t like about 5/3/1 are the 5x10 deadlifts, wouldn’t it be better to do something like 8x3 or 6x4?[/quote]

I don’t remember this being a part of the program. This is the actual Wendler versions right? I know I bought the original ebook so maybe there have been some changes.

5X10 deads are going to be VERY hard to recover from, imo assuming this is after you deadlift using the 5/3/1 rep scheme, is that right?[/quote]

Yeah man, boring but big template:

Squat Day
Squat: 5x10x50%
Leg Curls: 5x10

Bench Press Day
Bench Press: 5x10x50%
DB Rows: 5x10

Deadlift Day
Deadlift: 5x8x50% -> I don’t like this lol, form will become bad at 5th rep.
Hanging Leg Raises: 5x12

Mil. Press Day
Mil. Press: 5x10x50%
Chins: 5 sets to failure.[/quote]

You can do what you want, but I don’t think this template goes with cutting. If you cut right you can maintain and maybe increase muscle mass. This is debated all the time here. Personally I think you’d be better off trying to maintain strength levels while cutting. I’d do CT’s routine which is more in line with 5/3/1 anyway.

  1. Ramp to 1RM
  2. 2 Cluster or straight sets with 90% of 1RM (3-5 reps)
  3. Back down to 70% and ramp to 2RM
  4. 2 Cluster or straight sets with 90% of your 2RM (3-5 reps)
  5. Back down to 70% and ramp to 3RM
  6. 1 extended HDL set (max/15 sec/max) with 80% of 3RM

You can do this all 4 days and if you feel like it add an accessory movement or two, but from personal experience I’m telling you recovery is much harder when you are eating less.

Your template above has a lot of volume is all I’m saying and you aren’t going to be eating enough calories to recover. I wouldn’t even call it 5/3/1 when the lowest you go is 8 reps…

But this template is the main one and the simplest one on the book. All the other ones have more volume I think… Aren’t you mistaken? Dave Tate Periodization Bible Template has 5 more sets everyday and Wendler says it’s also really good. I used to do PHAT and I had no problems with recovery… This is way less volume and frequency lol

Quote from the book:
“Boring But Big: Main lift, the main lift again @ 5x10 (50% 1RM), and another accessory exercise for 5 sets.”

[quote]Quantikz wrote:
But this template is the main one and the simplest one on the book. All the other ones have more volume I think… Aren’t you mistaken? Dave Tate Periodization Bible Template has 5 more sets everyday and Wendler says it’s also really good. I used to do PHAT and I had no problems with recovery… This is way less volume and frequency lol
[/quote]

Maybe Jim changed his book, but the original 5/3/1 is based off your 5 rep max, 3 rep max, and 1 rep max. I don’t have it on me so I can’t check it, but like I said I don’t remember anything like what you wrote. 50% for 8-10 reps is not a strength template. Check out the attached article below. THis is the setup he suggests in it:

Week 1 Week 2 Week 3 Week 4
Set 1 65% x 5 70% x 3 75% x 5 40% x 5
Set 2 75% x 5 80% x 3 85% x 3 50% x 5
Set 3 85% x 5+ 90% x 3+ 95% x 1+ 60% x 5