Rookie Needs PCT Advice

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Obviously you didn’t even read the part where I laid out the protocol for this guy. I didn’t prescribe using any hrt test at all, just a straight taper of the enathate ester. [/quote]

I didn’t miss shit PeeMan. I am just tired of you blowing your horn everytime you open your mouth any more. Enanthate will taper without any human intervention. That is a fact.

Well, PeeMan - It’s schmuck just so we’re straight. And If you want to call 235 @ 11% BF little - go ahead. I have posted my pics. Do a search. And just for the record, nurseboy - I have never posted my pics in my avatar - I am not quite as full of myself as some are. But nice try at the frustrated insult. Could you look anymore insecure and desparate?

I can’t stand folks that think their way is the only way. I could give a shit what all you have tried. You have stuck with what works for you. Kudos. But you have made the mistake time and again of thinking that what works for you is the best and only option. That IS ignorance. Too bad you insecurity and pride won’t allow you to see it.

Yes I called you ignorant. Not because of what you don’t know - but because of how you use that knowledge. Grab a fucking dictionary. Calling me names don’t make you look any taller. Funny that you would say something like that and then think tapering is THE ONLY way to go.

[quote]I actually also compete in contests - I am knowlegable in all areas of BB, not just steroids.

for example who do think schooled Bush. on how to make his gear? I have helped countless people on here and you have the balls to say that to me?

you make me sick.[/quote]

Yeah yeah yeah - and I can run really fast as well. Ubi’s right. BBB is from the Chaos school. The difference between you and Bushy is that little close-minded ignorance thing.

I have come to you for advice and have been treated like a nuisance pretty much every time. I don’t need you advice, and I think it would be wise of anyone thinking you are as much of the King Shit as you proclaim to get differing viewpoints. Your’s is not the only truth out there. To be blind to that little fact is indeed ignorant. Thank you for making my case for me.

Now if you will excuse me I actually have a REAL life to get back to.

[quote]Viking69 wrote:
I have to disagree with rainjack here. Yes, in a way, test will taper itself, “cold turkey”.

P22 is suggesting taper the test in less dranatic way at hrt levels, but not high enough to continue suppression(50mg/week),until you feel your “boys” come back. I for one want to give it a try. Remeber once the world was flat. Name all the “gurus” you want, they have basically been coping each other for 30 years now.

[/quote]

There is room for everyone to disagree. My issue with the great P-22 is he is close-minded and thinks his way is the only way. You want to taper? Knock yourself out. Bushy is one of my best friends on the boards, and we disagree. He is not “my way or the Highway”, and neither am I.

It would be very disappointing if everyone on here agreed with everything that is said. That is not how knowledge is attained.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Viking69 wrote:
I have to disagree with rainjack here. Yes, in a way, test will taper itself, “cold turkey”.

P22 is suggesting taper the test in less dranatic way at hrt levels, but not high enough to continue suppression(50mg/week),until you feel your “boys” come back. I for one want to give it a try. Remeber once the world was flat. Name all the “gurus” you want, they have basically been coping each other for 30 years now.

There is room for everyone to disagree. My issue with the great P-22 is he is close-minded and thinks his way is the only way. You want to taper? Knock yourself out. Bushy is one of my best friends on the boards, and we disagree. He is not “my way or the Highway”, and neither am I.

It would be very disappointing if everyone on here agreed with everything that is said. That is not how knowledge is attained. [/quote]

Well, for the sake of science, I wish soemone else on this board would try the P22 taper… someone wo goes the normal SERM route.

Peace man peace… a little high on the test lately?

Critize P22 all you want, but he has tried both ways, and REALLY believes in one over the other.

I dont think he is insulting amyones intelligence and has backed up his view well. At least he has tried both ways, so I think it is the ones who havent who should not critize so harshly.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Viking69 wrote:
I have to disagree with rainjack here. Yes, in a way, test will taper itself, “cold turkey”.

P22 is suggesting taper the test in less dranatic way at hrt levels, but not high enough to continue suppression(50mg/week),until you feel your “boys” come back. I for one want to give it a try. Remeber once the world was flat. Name all the “gurus” you want, they have basically been coping each other for 30 years now.

There is room for everyone to disagree. My issue with the great P-22 is he is close-minded and thinks his way is the only way. You want to taper? Knock yourself out. Bushy is one of my best friends on the boards, and we disagree. He is not “my way or the Highway”, and neither am I.

It would be very disappointing if everyone on here agreed with everything that is said. That is not how knowledge is attained. [/quote]

I never said my way is the only way, what I have said is that tapering off is the best approach- when you factor in avoiding a crash, keeping your gains, and minimizing side effects and withdrawal symptoms.

Now speaking from experience, and knowing full well the dangers of using hcg, and the folley that most BB get themselves into by begining and ending their pct early due to underestimating the time it takes AAS to clear their system; I am convinced this approach is the better, more successfull approach.

For example - how many first-time users do cycles of deca, and then a conventional clomid or nolva pct that ends before the deca has even cleared their system, leaving them still in a suppressed state, with a test crash,and estrogen rebound from using nolva as an anti E during cycle?

The answer is too many, and the methods I have laid out eliminate this problem.

This method works so well that yes, I may become over-zealous in promoting this method, but it is with the simple motive of helping people.

And if I happen to see another method, for example the hcg being promoted, which I know from experience to be inferior, and much more risky being pushed, I am going to do my best to disuade the individual from taking that person’s advice.

As far as HCG use, yes it has it’s uses, but I believe very strongly that the risks, heavily out weigh the benifits of it’s use. Hcg in my opinion should not be administered without the supervision of an MD, and the availability of regular blood work.
I believe it is irresponsible for these internet ‘guru’s’ to be advocating it’s use without equally discussing the risks of it’s use.

Never mind the fact that these protocols are being given to first-time users of steroids, the vast majority who know nothing about pharmacology, to even understand the decisions and/or the implications of those decisons they are making.

And to think that the entire reason for the use of hcg is testicular atrophy, which in fact doesn’t even occur. There is no loss of tissue in the area that magically reappears once you inject hcg, the only difference is a decrease in blood flow to the area, as blood flow is regulated by tissue metabolism - the more a body part ‘works’, the higher it’s requirements for nutrients and gas exchange. At the end of a cycle, when the hpta is no longer suppressed, and the testes begin to pick up the load on manufacturing testosterone, and maturing sperm, metabolic demands increase, which stimulates and increase in blood flow to the area, and consequently the testes become more enlarged - more engorged with blood.
The whole argument of ‘keeping your testes in working order while on cycle’ is one big farce, of a fallacy which supports an entire hcg protocol, that too many get sucked into. The fact of the matter is they are actually chronically subjecting their testes to high doses of synthetic LH on a regular basis, which isn’t needed, and can’t be good.

The problem is there is too much of this ‘hard core’ poly-pharmacy approach going around these boards, and it isn’t needed. The KISS approach applies even to steroid cycling.

Now if there are BB out there that want to experiment with the hcg approach, that’s fine, I obviously can’t make anybody do anything, however, I will be obligated to share the tapering method, on everythread I see, (that I have time to respond to) as a credible, and sane and safer alternative.
There are too many people on these boards that just rehash information they got from somewhere else, without actually thinking it through. If I have to be the guy who calls B.S. when I see it, so be it.

As for Rainjack, you are entitled to your opinions, however it was you who insulted me first, I was just reacting to your post, which is a natural thing to do…it is however interesting to note, when you say you have a life to get back to, that I did have difficulting wading through your 5501 posts to find any pics which I quickly gave up on…

[quote]juice20jd wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
personally, i would have extended the weeks of prop use at the end…another 2 weeks. pris has given you good input on everything else.

good luck

I understand what you are saying, but the body needs time to adjust itself back to normal. The 4 week period will help in this manner.

I don’t agree with the cold turkey approach. Why go from being on a lot of test to almost none at all? This is only intesifies the side effects of comming of, such as increased acne, mood swings, loss of libido…

Why jump off a cliff if there is a staircase leading to the bottom?

so, would also tapering the prop be a decent approach? say 100 mg EOD for the first 2 weeks, then 50 EOD the following week, and 25 EOD the final week leading into PCT? in my estimation this would allow some anabolic support while the longer esters are clearing, while allowing for the taper to continue as you have laid out.

just trying to wrap my head around all this. i understand and can follow the logic in your method. but in all fairness, it is quite a new concept.

[/quote]

Using the enanthate ester, or the cypionate ester is a more simple approach to use, since less injections are needed, however a taper off can be done using test prop as well.

Of course if you were on a cycle using test enanthate, or cypionate, and stopped your injections at cycle’s end, the testosterone would slowly continue to release from your injection sites, at a gradually smaller amount daily over a span of about a month, thereafter the doses would be too small to be suppressive to any extent. During this ‘tapering’ you should avoid all other AAS. -

Remember the goal is to transion from blood levels of supraphysiological amount of test, to normal levels of testosterone. During this time you want your body to be able to adjust to the lower levels of T. Things such as levels of SBGH need to be adjusted, as levels of this protein would certainly be higher - if you went from one week on 500mg of prop, to the next week off. By alowing your body to slowly readjust to the changing hormone levels, side effects, such as acne, mood swings, libido changes, can be minimized.

Now as circulating testosterone levels from the injected test enanthate/or cyp, fall off below what your body would normally produce, and provided estrogen levels have been kept at normal levels by using an Aromatase inhibitor, when your exogenous blood levels do begin to fall below what your body considers it’s normal state the hpta will begin to work again, slowly increasing production of testosterone, as exogenous T levels continue to fall.

Now you can taper using Test prop - just devide your dose into 3 injections a week i.e 150mg/3 = 3 50mg injections equally spaced.

just continue to reduce the amount of prop used on a weekly basis.

I personally have found 6 weeks as a suitable taper period - but My cycles run for 8 months at a time.

When you consider that most people’s pct last about that long, and that you body doesn’t consider itself ‘on steroids’ once you reach a low enough dose of test in you body, irregardless of if it’s exogenous or endogenous’ This isn’t that bad.

Now I as I have said, at the end of the taper once you had gone off everything, that would be the time to use nolva or clomid to get that extra ‘boost’.

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Now if there are BB out there that want to experiment with the hcg approach, that’s fine, I obviously can’t make anybody do anything, however, I will be obligated to share the tapering method, on everythread I see, (that I have time to respond to) as a credible, and sane and safer alternative.
There are too many people on these boards that just rehash information they got from somewhere else, without actually thinking it through. If I have to be the guy who calls B.S. when I see it, so be it.[/quote]

Swale is a big proponent of using HCG. He is an HRT specialist. He makes very good points for judicious use of HCG.

Pheedno is probably the most used PCT protocol out there. He is not a fan of HCG, but does believe in use of Clomid and Nolvadex.

I guess I just don’t see the bullshit you do. There are many ways to skin a cat. Pretty much whatever works for you is what you espouse. Not a problem. The way you came across touting tapering as the only real way to do it just pissed me off as you can only say that about yourself. But I was probablyout of line for being as caustic as I was.

The way you came across touting tapering as the only real way to do it just pissed me off as you can only say that about yourself. But I was probably out of line for being as caustic as I was.

As for my 5501 posts - I have posted my photos. One is in a thread in November 2004 before I ever started AAS. Another is on the TILF thread immediately after my first cycle - Middle of July 2005, I think. Another is in a tattoo thread I started after getting the T-Nation emblem inked on me towards the end of July.

thanks for the explanation. it does make sense.

so, in my upcoming 20 weeker…i am finishing with prop and mast…after gaining a better grasp of your method…i guess it is safe to say that a taper could be implemented using these 2 compounds and be successful. i think i will give it a go!

Test usually makes me want to hug people, and hump their legs.

So is that Anthony in his Avatar?

RJ, i resent what you said about those of us who put our pics in our avatars… son of a bitch! lol

Juice, you are aware that Masteron (which I love btw) has a high affinity for SHBG, essentially letting any other exogenous hormone to reign unbound if used concurrently? Meaning that if you incorporated this into your “taper”… it would actually allow more test or what have you exert it’s effect… defeating your purpose if used at the end. … or at least delaying the taper initially… JMO…

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:

I never said my way is the only way, what I have said is that tapering off is the best approach- when you factor in avoiding a crash, keeping your gains, and minimizing side effects and withdrawal symptoms.

Now speaking from experience, and knowing full well the dangers of using hcg, and the folley that most BB get themselves into by begining and ending their pct early due to underestimating the time it takes AAS to clear their system; I am convinced this approach is the better, more successfull approach.

For example - how many first-time users do cycles of deca, and then a conventional clomid or nolva pct that ends before the deca has even cleared their system, leaving them still in a suppressed state, with a test crash,and estrogen rebound from using nolva as an anti E during cycle?

The answer is too many, and the methods I have laid out eliminate this problem.

This method works so well that yes, I may become over-zealous in promoting this method, but it is with the simple motive of helping people.

And if I happen to see another method, for example the hcg being promoted, which I know from experience to be inferior, and much more risky being pushed, I am going to do my best to disuade the individual from taking that person’s advice.

As far as HCG use, yes it has it’s uses, but I believe very strongly that the risks, heavily out weigh the benifits of it’s use. Hcg in my opinion should not be administered without the supervision of an MD, and the availability of regular blood work.
I believe it is irresponsible for these internet ‘guru’s’ to be advocating it’s use without equally discussing the risks of it’s use.

Never mind the fact that these protocols are being given to first-time users of steroids, the vast majority who know nothing about pharmacology, to even understand the decisions and/or the implications of those decisons they are making.

And to think that the entire reason for the use of hcg is testicular atrophy, which in fact doesn’t even occur. There is no loss of tissue in the area that magically reappears once you inject hcg, the only difference is a decrease in blood flow to the area, as blood flow is regulated by tissue metabolism - the more a body part ‘works’, the higher it’s requirements for nutrients and gas exchange. At the end of a cycle, when the hpta is no longer suppressed, and the testes begin to pick up the load on manufacturing testosterone, and maturing sperm, metabolic demands increase, which stimulates and increase in blood flow to the area, and consequently the testes become more enlarged - more engorged with blood.
The whole argument of ‘keeping your testes in working order while on cycle’ is one big farce, of a fallacy which supports an entire hcg protocol, that too many get sucked into. The fact of the matter is they are actually chronically subjecting their testes to high doses of synthetic LH on a regular basis, which isn’t needed, and can’t be good.

The problem is there is too much of this ‘hard core’ poly-pharmacy approach going around these boards, and it isn’t needed. The KISS approach applies even to steroid cycling.

Now if there are BB out there that want to experiment with the hcg approach, that’s fine, I obviously can’t make anybody do anything, however, I will be obligated to share the tapering method, on everythread I see, (that I have time to respond to) as a credible, and sane and safer alternative.
There are too many people on these boards that just rehash information they got from somewhere else, without actually thinking it through. If I have to be the guy who calls B.S. when I see it, so be it.
[/quote]

I must admit I agree. I am a proponent of HCG use on cycle however, at a low does… per Swale… only because it works for me. I have no recovery issues, and for this reason feel I am not affecting my leydig negatively.

You are very right about people not understanding clearance times and staring/ending PCT much too early… especially with long esters… this is apparent all over the boards.

I just want to see a pic of RJ and P-22 holding hands… that’s all. That’s my purpose here. To bridge the gap between Manitoba and Texas. You guys have so much in common… vast plains, cows… rednecks… gay cowboys.

[quote]ubiquitous wrote:
Test usually makes me want to hug people, and hump their legs.

So is that Anthony in his Avatar?

RJ, i resent what you said about those of us who put our pics in our avatars… son of a bitch! lol

Juice, you are aware that Masteron (which I love btw) has a high affinity for SHBG, essentially letting any other exogenous hormone to reign unbound if used concurrently? Meaning that if you incorporated this into your “taper”… it would actually allow more test or what have you exert it’s effect… defeating your purpose if used at the end. … or at least delaying the taper initially… JMO… [/quote]

Actually, masteron has antiestrogon properties, and with it’s affinity to bind with SHBG, along with the fact it is DHT - the hormone that supports libido, I have found in practice it is an excellent choice to use concurently with testosterone in a taper.

Just reduce the dose of test you use by half - i.e. if you were tapering with 100mg per week of test, use 50mg of masteron, and 50 mg of test instead.
If you use the masteron, then the adex is not needed, as the amount of test used will be lower meaning less aromatization, plus the masteron’s anti estronic actions come into play as well.

I actually prefer this approach, but masteron unfortunately isn’t always available to everyone, and using just a plain testosterone taper with adex will work fine as well.

additionally if adex wasn’t available, the test taper would work just with nolvadex, however the taper may have to be longer, to ensure estrogen was low enough to come off.

Getting blood work - estradiol levels would give you a good indication that you were ready at that point to come off your hrt dose, and specifically the tamoxifin, without fear of suffering an estrogen rebound, which could shut you down, and cause rebound gynocomastia,and loss of muscle mass instead.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:

And to think that the entire reason for the use of hcg is testicular atrophy, which in fact doesn’t even occur. There is no loss of tissue in the area that magically reappears once you inject hcg, the only difference is a decrease in blood flow to the area, as blood flow is regulated by tissue metabolism - the more a body part ‘works’, the higher it’s requirements for nutrients and gas exchange. At the end of a cycle, when the hpta is no longer suppressed, and the testes begin to pick up the load on manufacturing testosterone, and maturing sperm, metabolic demands increase, which stimulates and increase in blood flow to the area, and consequently the testes become more enlarged - more engorged with blood.

Hmm, interesting. I have ‘felt’ this to be true for a while now but since I couldn’t find anything on it, I assumed it to be a figment of my imagination…

It makes sense to me as during periods of heavy suppression, my balls and scrotum are always cold and lifeless LOL (nandrolone is a real shit for this).

Just for information, I plan on trying a P22 style taper at some point in the not too distant future (3-5 months), though I will add in GH to counter the paranoia of muscle-loss during PCT. I will of course log my experiences for interested parties…

bushy[/quote]

Bushy,

I was planning a cycle at the first part of the year for this as well but I ran into a shoulder injury (just a twitch) and I am taking it easy for a while with lighter weight and form. I will not start for a few months either and will post accordingly.

The logic is there, but to each his own. I too will still try this approach just so I will know. I posted a plan and both P-22 and Juice tweaked it a bit and thats how its laid out now, waiting…

Its under this heading:

Testosterone Nation - Spring Cycle, P22 Style, I posted this back Jan 8 06

but I am having trouble linking it.

Good luck,

JW

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:

Actually, masteron has antiestrogon properties, and with it’s affinity to bind with SHBG, along with the fact it is DHT - the hormone that supports libido, I have found in practice it is an excellent choice to use concurently with testosterone in a taper.

Just reduce the dose of test you use by half - i.e. if you were tapering with 100mg per week of test, use 50mg of masteron, and 50 mg of test instead.
If you use the masteron, then the adex is not needed, as the amount of test used will be lower meaning less aromatization, plus the masteron’s anti estronic actions come into play as well.

I actually prefer this approach, but masteron unfortunately isn’t always available to everyone, and using just a plain testosterone taper with adex will work fine as well.

additionally if adex wasn’t available, the test taper would work just with nolvadex, however the taper may have to be longer, to ensure estrogen was low enough to come off.
[/quote]

Right, it seems we are in agreement, as you adjusted the dose of test (lowered) due to masteron’s SHBG affinity. This would make the taper effacioius with the use of sweet sweet Drostanalone. If you had not lowered it to compensate for Masteron, there would be a spike of free test for a bit, until the tapered dose’s pharmacokinetics came into play. IMHO.

I should also point out for those not familiar with Drostanalone Propionate (masteron) or Drostanalone Enanthate, is that it is more suitable for someone who competes… as the true benefit of the compound is increased hardness, graininess and vascularity… (something common with all DHT derivatives)… and something that only people of, oh, say…sub-10% bf really get to admire the true benefit of.

Not that it doesn’t aid a recreational AAS user (libido, antiestrogenic qualities, SHGB affinity), but it really is more suited to competitors or brickhouse underwear models… ahhh… yess…

I decided at the beginning of my cycle not to do a p22 style test taper (hence the prop only last few weeks). While it may be effective and yes the way he describes it does have merit. However, it is certainly not the traditional approach. Being a rookie I don’t think I’m a good candidate to try newer ideas like this and make educated evaluations as to their effectiveness. I simply do not have the experience to make such evaluations.

Since I am not doing a test taper, what should I do, and when? Last Enanthate was 3 weeks ago. My last prop shot was yesterday. I have nolva, adex, hcg. I want to avoid Clomid. As previously said I took 200-300 iu of hcg every saturday and sunday while on cycle. Nuts don’t seem any smaller. Do I need to do any larger shots of HCG? Would I use any adex post cycle or just nolva. How much and when?

LOL, ubiq that was some REALLY FUNNY SHIT BRO!!! LMAO ROLF!

BTW awesome post, could we get Cy Wilson in on this one please CALLING Cy WILSON! MR. Cy WILSON!?? :slight_smile:

i am going to risk serious flamming here posting on this forum, but here i go…

my “guidance” or steroid use was from louie simmons years and years ago, he told me he has only taken one cycle in his entire life, that laste over 20 years. he said get on a low dose of something “mild” and stay on.

though i have not been on continuously for 10-12 years, i have taken test for over a year straight on different occassions, at doses form 100-500mg a week. and when i ran out of money or “connections” i just stopped. i felt a little lethargic and weak for a short period of time, but not the crazy disasterous side effects you guys seem to claim or warn of. i never took any PCT either. what gives i wonder?

I’m glad you’re open to a flame (from a rookie, no less). Here goes: Sure I could do that but why the hell would I want to. I’m not afraid I’m going to commit suicide, I just want to maintain my gains as best I can. I have money, I have all types of gear available to me. Why would I CHOOSE to do what you have done?

I could always administer my gear by jabbing a pin in my eye but why the fuck would I if I have other alternatives? I understand in your situation you didn’t have a choice but would you really recommend your experience as optimum?

that is not what i was trying to say. what i meant to say was that i wondered what the deal was with my particular situation. was the dose low enough that despite the length i was on m own system did not shut completely down and i never experienced the “crash” i hear stories about. it was more of a question than a suggestion as to what you should do. ummm-kay?