T Nation

Rookie Needs PCT Advice


#1

First cycle (test only) here's what I did:
week 1 300 prop and 800 enan
week 2 300 prop and 400 enan
week 3 300 prop and 400 enan
week 4-8 500 enan only
week 9 & 10 500 prop only

I've taken .5mg adex eod and 300 iu of hcg every saturday and sunday throughout (I do not notice any significant nut shrinkage).

Now I'm ready for PCT.

What now? I want to avoid clomid. I have hcg, adex, and nolvadex. I have access to other stuff. For a first cycle of 10 weeks with moderate test doseage do I need to do a more significant dose of hcg? Should I continue some adex during pct? What doseage of nolva for how long?

What should I take and when?


#2

If you want to avoid clomid, I would take 40mg of novla a day stacked with Alpha Male, for 3-4 weeks. I think this would be sufficent.


#3

Many like the 40mg for the first 2 weeks - 20mg for last 2 weeks.


#4

Because you ran the hcg through your cycle and did not use arimidex or femara you will have major problems post cycle. If you like you can pm me down the road when these 'problems' begin.

PCT is now big business, and their is a lot of companies out there duping you individuals by using their 'loose science'. They affiliate themselves with 'board vets' to help push their agenda's.

They have made comming off steroids more complicated then the actual cycling of steroids. When comming off should be really simple.

Good luck.


#5

P22 you misread my post. I AM takeing adex .5 eod. My administration of hcg was very conservative. What problem would you think I will encounter?

As for references to guys pushing crap ideas to go with some crap products, I don't think that applies to me. I haven't been takeing anything hyped by any particular vets or product companies. Merely what I've come up with based on over 100 hours studying info on this site and others as well as some books. While you may disagree with my choices I think I am clearly in the mainstream here with regard to the choices I've made. They are certainly not based on some crazy ass theorey designed around pushing a particular product.


#6

Still haven't got any answers for some of my questions.

Do you feel I should take a larger hcg dose at the end of the cycle or throughout the pct?

When should I start pct given the cycle I described above?

Should I continue adex after the cycle or discontinue it for pct?


#7

Sorry, I missed the adex usage. good. Anyway the crap idea is the hcg. It will just make your recovery a lot longer, as you have been exposing your leydig receptors to a high dose of synthetic lh for the entire length of your cycle. Your body slowly secretes lh at night during your sleep. It doesn't hit your leydig receptors all at once - 300 ius every weekend like you have been doing.

as for your pct this is how I would do it:
I recomend .5 mg of arimidex daily throughout the 500mg of test per week cycle. At the end of the cycle, it will take roughly 4 weeks for levels of exogenous testosterone to fall off. During this time, continue to do .5mg of arimidex daily for two weeks, then reduce the dose to .5mg of arimidex every other day for 1 week, and then .25mg of arimidex eod for 1 week.

As testosterone enanthate tapers itself, and the body can't distinguish exogenous test from endogenous, there shouldn't be any need for using hrt test during this period.

At the end of this 4 week period continue with the arimidex at .25mg eod for 2 additional weeks, to ensure estrogen aromatization continues to remain low, and that there is no 'rebound' effect when you go off the arimidex, as can happen if you stop it too soon.

That is all that should be needed for a straight testosterone cycle - the key as I said is keeping estrogen in check from the get-go! nolvadex and clomid will not suffice for this! you absolutely have to use an AI!!!!

Now, at this point if you wanted to try a SERM that would be the point to begin it's use.


#8

So the only thing you don't like is the fact that I did HCG through out the cycle and you feel this exogenous hcg will suppress the function of my lydig cells. I know there is obvious research that indicates that this is the effect of adding testosterone into the body but I've never seen anything indicating that hcg suppresses the lydig cells.

Do you really think it will take 4 weeks given the fact that my doseage was small and I closed out with prop rather than enan or cyp?

How would you recommend I use a serm at that point?


#9

personally, i would have extended the weeks of prop use at the end....another 2 weeks. pris has given you good input on everything else.

good luck


#10

Agree. Listen to them.

JW


#11

I understand what you are saying, but the body needs time to adjust itself back to normal. The 4 week period will help in this manner.

I don't agree with the cold turkey approach. Why go from being on a lot of test to almost none at all? This is only intesifies the side effects of comming of, such as increased acne, mood swings, loss of libido....

Why jump off a cliff if there is a staircase leading to the bottom?


#12

P22

So what wouldnt he come off the test from 400 to 200 to 100 to 50, and then continue to run the AI for a few weeks like you stated.....?


#13

Look up the use of a Nolvadex with HCG. It invalidates the notion of not using HCG for PCT.


#14

So you don't agree with Bill Roberts, Dan Duchaine, Bill Llewellyn, and most people who write or wrote for a living about steroids...

All of whom have published books or articles supporting thier PCT claims with references from peer reviewed medical journals.


#15

I think tapering off is as big a joke as anything. If you are running a long ester - there is no fucking way you can just come off cold turkey. There is a little thing called a half-life that naturally tapers for you.

Even running prop - you still get a taper by coming off "cold turkey".

Why fool yourself into thinking you are doing something about "the crash" when you are only keeping yourself shut down that much longer?

Different strokes for different folks, but being so closed minded about other options just because you think you have the answer is ignorance at its zentith.

I would expect better from someone as knowledgable and obviously superior to the common man as P-22.


#16

I recall we already had a debate in which it was quite clear that you lost. And I'll debate anybody on the subject, and I have to say I got a lot of pm's from other medical proffessionals supporting my approach.

So go take roberts and llwelyn or whatever his name is and duchaine and run along. I'm not discrediting the fact that you have a lot of knowledge yourself, but on this subject we are on opposite sides. The fact that you have a degree in Creative writing and that medical studies can be thrown into a work and missused badly proves that just because peer reviewed materieal is sourced, does not mean that it is relavent to the argument at hand.

Most of you have never even tried this approach, where I have tried both methods. So I don't understand how any of you can be so critical, and lack an open mind.

But that's o.k. I am not going to convert everyone...

Oh and I might add that I continue to get a lot of pm's on a daily basis of individuals asking my help with their pct, so it's quite clear my arguments and reasoning is not falling on deaf ears.


#17

Obviously you didn't even read the part where I laid out the protocol for this guy. I didn't prescribe using any hrt test at all, just a straight taper of the enathate ester.

And you are ridiculing me for helping this guy? Some little smuck sitting behind his keyboard ridiculing P-22? Well big boy post some pics and let see what you look like - if you got a big mouth let see if you can back it up with the face and body too. Somehow, judging by your Avatar pics, I highly doubt it.

One thing I can't stand is people who act all knowledgable on here, but lack the look to back up their crap.

And you call me ignorant? and close-minded? I have tried all the other approaches. I am not a steroid or a BB newbie like yourself.

I actually also compete in contests - I am knowlegable in all areas of BB, not just steroids.

for example who do think schooled Bush. on how to make his gear? I have helped countless people on here and you have the balls to say that to me?

you make me sick.


#18

so, would also tapering the prop be a decent approach? say 100 mg EOD for the first 2 weeks, then 50 EOD the following week, and 25 EOD the final week leading into PCT? in my estimation this would allow some anabolic support while the longer esters are clearing, while allowing for the taper to continue as you have laid out.

just trying to wrap my head around all this. i understand and can follow the logic in your method. but in all fairness, it is quite a new concept.


#19

whoah.. I've been away for a while, and I come back to this?

I'm pretty sure Bushy learned about making gear through the school of Chaos.. pretty sure about that one.

Why are you guys bickering so much on this board? Serenity now!

BBing denotes ego, and usually where there is ego, there are people talking shit. I know. But I thought you guys were on friendly terms last time I graced my presence around here.

Hey Anthony, is that you in your avy?

BTW, tapering isn't such a new idea. Different strokes as they say.. whatever you feel works for you, unless it's horribly wrong.

All this pissing match action is making me uneasy... I may need to retreat to my hole for a while.


#20

I have to disagree with rainjack here. Yes, in a way, test will taper itself, "cold turkey".

P22 is suggesting taper the test in less dranatic way at hrt levels, but not high enough to continue suppression(50mg/week),until you feel your "boys" come back. I for one want to give it a try. Remeber once the world was flat. Name all the "gurus" you want, they have basically been coping each other for 30 years now.