Ron Paul and Bin Laden

[quote]Otep wrote:
ZEB wrote:

But its nice to know you’re a fan of Obama.[/quote]

I’m a fan of doing the right thing. If tomorrow Obama suddenly awoke from his stupor and realized that those making 200-k or more are the backbone of the economy and decided to give them (and every one else) tax breaks, while cutting some of the foolish spending programs I would laud him for that as well.

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
Ron Paul would have first told the Pakistan government…[/quote]

So, basically, he would’ve screwed it up. Ok, thanks.[/quote]

And why would that screw it up? Who do you think helped us catch the mastermind behind 9/11? Couldn’t be Pakistan now could it. Or was it when Bush asked them for help it was a good thing, but Ron Paul doing it is bad.

So any more wise ass comments?[/quote]

If you think that alerting the Pakistani government would not have considerably threatened the integrity of the operation, then you’re as bluntly naive on this matter as Paul is.

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
Ron Paul would have first told the Pakistan government…[/quote]

So, basically, he would’ve screwed it up. Ok, thanks.[/quote]

And why would that screw it up? Who do you think helped us catch the mastermind behind 9/11? Couldn’t be Pakistan now could it. Or was it when Bush asked them for help it was a good thing, but Ron Paul doing it is bad.

So any more wise ass comments?[/quote]

Wasn’t the Pakistan government hiding Bib Laden? How in the world could he have lived in a mansion in the middle of such a high class neighborhood in the open and not have the government be aware?

Obama did the right thing - And you won’t hear me saying that too many times. [/quote]

In all fairness (and the ISI pointed it out at the time, IIRC), Whitey Bulger was living in the lap of luxury (Santa Monica), and I don’t consider The American Government to have been hiding him.

Doubtless Bin Laden had friends in Pakistan’s government. Doubtless, Pakistan’s government is not monolithic.

But its nice to know you’re a fan of Obama.[/quote]

Bin Laden was the most famous man in the Muslim world.

I’ll bet Whitey’s neighbors never heard of him.

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
The point of the matter is, is that while Paul’s policies would have probably not got your jingo-ist revenge you wanted…his policies would prevent things like this from happening in the future. Had the USA never played global third world pimp we’d never have all these deranged boyfriends coming after us.

Also, Paul was asked about WW2 specifically, and he said he would have entered WW2 in the same way we did. If you don’t recall, the AXIS ATTACKED us and it was only THEN that we we entered the war.

Also, killing Bin Laden has not really strategically done anything against Al Qaeda, if anything, it has immortalized it.[/quote]

That is a pretty simplistic view of WW2. The US was active against both Germany and Japan before December 7, 1941.

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
The point of the matter is, is that while Paul’s policies would have probably not got your jingo-ist revenge you wanted…his policies would prevent things like this from happening in the future. Had the USA never played global third world pimp we’d never have all these deranged boyfriends coming after us.

Also, Paul was asked about WW2 specifically, and he said he would have entered WW2 in the same way we did. If you don’t recall, the AXIS ATTACKED us and it was only THEN that we we entered the war.

Also, killing Bin Laden has not really strategically done anything against Al Qaeda, if anything, it has immortalized it.[/quote]

That is a pretty simplistic view of WW2. The US was active against both Germany and Japan before December 7, 1941.[/quote]

If you don’t recall, the USA not selling rssoueces to Japan and Germany were exacerbants to Japan attacking us. I am NO world war 2 historian, but if I recall correctly, the Japan knocked out the pacific fleet because they wanted to go for an oil grab in the Malaysia or Indoenesia or something. The reason for this, was the USA had stopped selling oil to them, thus they required but knew an attack on a US ally could provoke an response, so attempted to disable that.

If this were the case, and I will be the first to admit, my facts might be a little off, I am not a historian in this. But if it is the case.

Then simply selling to Germany and Japan wold have prevented war with them in the first place. Any of you who think “OMG THE WORLD WOULD BE SUCH A HORRENDOUS PLACE IF GERMANY AND JAPAN HAD WON,” are misguided. People are not obliged to tyranny, far less so if they must suffer to hold it up. Do you truly believe a German occupied Europe could have held down an opposed foreign populace and a far greater numbered prolonged Russian assault? Likewise with Japan. They would have either crumbled under their own weight or evolved into something better through internal reforms to please a changing demographic scarred by by war.

WW2 was not a war agains ttyranny, it was a war for geo-political objectives, if it truly were a war against tyranny, we’d have taken USSR, Portugual, Spain, France and England down while we were at it. All of whom were engaging in their own shades of genocides for selfish intersts, during and/or within decades before the war.

In fact the USA may as well have given the Lakota back their nation and paid the blacks reparations. O wait we forgot that during WW2 the USA was an apartheid system.

People will figure their own wars out, individuals supportive of causes could have lent money, volunteered, organized, or even formed a PMC. Committing all of us to something that wasn’t our concern, was and is wrong. I don’t really think WW2 solved much of anything, at the end of it, we just had one axis of oppressive regimes knocked out, and gave their territorial claims to two other ones.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

…Also, killing Bin Laden has not really strategically done anything against Al Qaeda, if anything, it has immortalized it.

[/quote]

Bullshit.

Killing command and control personnel in a war is always a strategic benefit.
[/quote]
Al-Qaeda is now a network of cells. They were more organzied in the begining, but that’s why they were easy to break down, Bin Laden has not had direct control for years. That’s why he puts out videos, to influence people who in his loosley affiliated cause. If he did have command and control power, we would have found him sooner. I would say killing Bin Laden was a good way to show power, but has turned a flame that would have died out on its own, into an immortal folk hero.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
The point of the matter is, is that while Paul’s policies would have probably not got your jingo-ist revenge you wanted…his policies would prevent things like this from happening in the future. Had the USA never played global third world pimp we’d never have all these deranged boyfriends coming after us.

Also, Paul was asked about WW2 specifically, and he said he would have entered WW2 in the same way we did. If you don’t recall, the AXIS ATTACKED us and it was only THEN that we we entered the war.

Also, killing Bin Laden has not really strategically done anything against Al Qaeda, if anything, it has immortalized it.[/quote]

That is a pretty simplistic view of WW2. The US was active against both Germany and Japan before December 7, 1941.[/quote]

If you don’t recall, the USA not selling rssoueces to Japan and Germany were exacerbants to Japan attacking us. I am NO world war 2 historian, but if I recall correctly, the Japan knocked out the pacific fleet because they wanted to go for an oil grab in the Malaysia or Indoenesia or something. The reason for this, was the USA had stopped selling oil to them, thus they required but knew an attack on a US ally could provoke an response, so attempted to disable that.

If this were the case, and I will be the first to admit, my facts might be a little off, I am not a historian in this. But if it is the case.

Then simply selling to Germany and Japan wold have prevented war with them in the first place. Any of you who think “OMG THE WORLD WOULD BE SUCH A HORRENDOUS PLACE IF GERMANY AND JAPAN HAD WON,” are misguided. People are not obliged to tyranny, far less so if they must suffer to hold it up. Do you truly believe a German occupied Europe could have held down an opposed foreign populace and a far greater numbered prolonged Russian assault? Likewise with Japan. They would have either crumbled under their own weight or evolved into something better through internal reforms to please a changing demographic scarred by by war.

WW2 was not a war agains ttyranny, it was a war for geo-political objectives, if it truly were a war against tyranny, we’d have taken USSR, Portugual, Spain, France and England down while we were at it. All of whom were engaging in their own shades of genocides for selfish intersts, during and/or within decades before the war.

In fact the USA may as well have given the Lakota back their nation and paid the blacks reparations. O wait we forgot that during WW2 the USA was an apartheid system.

People will figure their own wars out, individuals supportive of causes could have lent money, volunteered, organized, or even formed a PMC. Committing all of us to something that wasn’t our concern, was and is wrong. I don’t really think WW2 solved much of anything, at the end of it, we just had one axis of oppressive regimes knocked out, and gave their territorial claims to two other ones.
[/quote]

The best part of this utterly worthless post, as well as the only accurate and insightful one, is, “I am NO world war 2 historian.”[/quote]

“The ongoing conflict in China led to a deepening conflict with the U.S., where public opinion was alarmed by events such as the Nanking Massacre and growing Japanese power. Lengthy talks were held between the U.S. and Japan. When Japan moved into the southern part of French Indochina, President Roosevelt chose to freeze all Japanese assets in the U.S. The intended consequence of this was the halt of oil shipments from the U.S. to Japan, which had supplied 80 percent of Japanese oil imports. The Netherlands and UK followed suit. With oil reserves that would last only a year and a half during peace time (much less during wartime), Japan had two choices: comply with the U.S.-led demand to pull out of China, or seize the oilfields in the East Indies from the Netherlands. The Japan government deemed it unacceptable to retreat from China.
Hoping to knock out the United States for long enough to be able to achieve and consolidate their war-aims, the Japanese Navy attacked the U.S. Navy at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. They mistakenly believed they would have a two year window to consolidate their conquests before the United States could effectively respond, and the United States would seek a compromise peace long before the tide of war could potentially turn to the Allies’ superior production.” - From Caused of World War II, on Wikipedia.

So where exactly was the inaccuracy in my statement? East Indies = Modern Indonesia btw, in case you weren’t aware. :wink:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
Ron Paul would have first told the Pakistan government…[/quote]

So, basically, he would’ve screwed it up. Ok, thanks.[/quote]

And why would that screw it up? Who do you think helped us catch the mastermind behind 9/11? Couldn’t be Pakistan now could it. Or was it when Bush asked them for help it was a good thing, but Ron Paul doing it is bad.

So any more wise ass comments?[/quote]

Wasn’t the Pakistan government hiding Bib Laden? How in the world could he have lived in a mansion in the middle of such a high class neighborhood in the open and not have the government be aware?

Obama did the right thing - And you won’t hear me saying that too many times. [/quote]

In all fairness (and the ISI pointed it out at the time, IIRC), Whitey Bulger was living in the lap of luxury (Santa Monica), and I don’t consider The American Government to have been hiding him.

Doubtless Bin Laden had friends in Pakistan’s government. Doubtless, Pakistan’s government is not monolithic.

But its nice to know you’re a fan of Obama.[/quote]

Bin Laden was the most famous man in the Muslim world.

I’ll bet Whitey’s neighbors never heard of him.[/quote]

Also, today I ate over twenty five super-hot buffalo wings on a dare. What does this have to do with the American government somehow being complicit in hiding Whitey Bulger?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Japan and Germany declared war against us. It became “our concern.”

Yes, the US had an oil embargo in place against Japan in the late 30’s and that helped precipitate the Pearl Harbor attack. However, the embargo was not for an arbitrary reason. And regardless of the reason(s) Japan had no right to initiate the attack against the US because we weren’t selling the oil to them at the time. As a sovereign nation the US could sell oil to whomever and whenever it pleased - that in itself is not an act of war. Pearl Harbor and the invasion the Philippines was.[/quote]

I’m not saying it’s not our right to sell or not sell. BTW, an embargo IS an act of war. However, I’m not saying that justifies their violence.

The US beef with Japan had nothing to do with Humanitarianism, and everything to do with colonial racism. We wanted them out of China because they were dominating it and cutting out the other imperial powers. If we cared about anti-Cololonialism, we’d have taken the same stance against Portugal and the UK at the time.

There was hardly anything ‘just’ about WW2. Just because Germany happened to take massacre into the industrialized scale, doesn’t mean they patented the act itself.

Yet every American high schooler’s history book is probably 5% expose’ on the atrocity of the German war machine, and the Hebrew smoothies they made with 40 foot tal blenders.

If Nazi Germany would have conquered the USSR, would more or less people have died, than did anyways under Stalin’s purges? What was changed, what was saved?

WW2 is phony baloney US propaganda, it’s intentions were not righteous and it solved next to nothing. And you’ll say ‘OMG THE HOLOCAUST’ isn’t it funny that the holocaust strawman is used so readily to justify WW2, but yet noone cares about the Germans the USSR butchered prior to it, the Armenians the Turks butchered during it, or Dutch - Africans women and children the British slaughtered decades before?

So I guess the Jews are the only people worth saving or fighting for. I mean they are God’s chosen people after all, right? So I guess we must prevent the ‘Master Race’ from killing 'God’s Chosen People".

[half facetious]Wait, but, well aren’t those two terms one in the same anyways? Two groups that claim to be racial superior than everyone else…and well, no way…one of these groups nowadays holds down an apartheid regime over another group and uses racial biology to define who is and isn’t a member of “God’s Race.” This is all so confusing, I thought the Jews and the Nazis were supposed to be different?[/half facetious]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Let me see if I can clarify and be succinct in the same post.

American military involvement in WWII was not merely just the direct result of an “unjustified” oil embargo against Japan.

The largest conflict in world history was a complicated one. Very complicated.[/quote]
Why was the USA so opposed to Japanese colonialism in Asia, but did not care about British colonialism in Asia?

Answer: It had nothing to do with Anti-Colonialism and everything to do with maintaining status quo, and racial superiority. Yes, the USA, was on the side of racial dominance of whites over non-whites. Refer to their vote in the ‘Equality Clause’ during the formation of the League of Nations.

WW2 was complicated, but that is your cop out now, because there is no way in hell to say it was a ‘just’ war, or an example ‘righteous state power.’

If anything, Ron Paul’s policies if applied unilaterally would have prevented the war. He favors free trade, and the colonial empires locking Japan out of free trade for their resources are what resulted in their need to invade natural resources.

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

WW2 was complicated, but that is your cop out now, because there is no way in hell to say it was a ‘just’ war, or an example ‘righteous state power.’[/quote]

LMAO…don’t tell you you’re a college student right? And your Professor has informed you that the USA is an evil empire.

You nut.

If any other country had done in the US what we had done in Pakistan, I’m pretty sure there’d be hell to pay. Just an observation.

[quote]byukid wrote:
If any other country had done in the US what we had done in Pakistan, I’m pretty sure there’d be hell to pay. Just an observation.[/quote]

Any other country?

You mean if Russia was attacked the way the US was on 9-11 they wouldn’t have entered Pakistan without permission? No you’re probably right because Russia probably would have wiped Pakistan off the face of the earth as soon as they found out that Bin Laden was there. As for China, and a long list of other countries same thing.

The US had every right to do what it did. And furthermore, we should hold Pakistan responsible for harboring a terrorist such as Bin Laden. We should make them pay a price for this travesty of justice.

When it comes to foreign policy Ron Paul doesn’t know his ass from first base, and you are not far behind him judging by your post.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Any other country?

You mean if Russia was attacked the way the US was on 9-11 they wouldn’t have entered Pakistan without permission? No you’re probably right because Russia probably would have wiped Pakistan off the face of the earth as soon as they found out that Bin Laden was there. As for China, and a long list of other countries same thing.

The US had every right to do what it did. And furthermore, we should hold Pakistan responsible for harboring a terrorist such as Bin Laden. We should make them pay a price for this travesty of justice.

When it comes to foreign policy Ron Paul doesn’t know his ass from first base, and you are not far behind him judging by your post.
[/quote]

We had every right to wage two wars in which more american military died than were civilians killed on 9/11 (not to mention the billions spent there) to find and kill one old, diabetic, evil man? We should have let him rot in his compound.

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
Ron Paul would have first told the Pakistan government…[/quote]

So, basically, he would’ve screwed it up. Ok, thanks.[/quote]

And why would that screw it up? Who do you think helped us catch the mastermind behind 9/11? Couldn’t be Pakistan now could it. Or was it when Bush asked them for help it was a good thing, but Ron Paul doing it is bad.

So any more wise ass comments?[/quote]

Wasn’t the Pakistan government hiding Bib Laden? How in the world could he have lived in a mansion in the middle of such a high class neighborhood in the open and not have the government be aware?

Obama did the right thing - And you won’t hear me saying that too many times. [/quote]

In all fairness (and the ISI pointed it out at the time, IIRC), Whitey Bulger was living in the lap of luxury (Santa Monica), and I don’t consider The American Government to have been hiding him.

Doubtless Bin Laden had friends in Pakistan’s government. Doubtless, Pakistan’s government is not monolithic.

But its nice to know you’re a fan of Obama.[/quote]

Bin Laden was the most famous man in the Muslim world.

I’ll bet Whitey’s neighbors never heard of him.[/quote]

Also, today I ate over twenty five super-hot buffalo wings on a dare. What does this have to do with the American government somehow being complicit in hiding Whitey Bulger?[/quote]

You do realize that a “rouge” FBI agent assisted Whitey and tipped him off so he could escape. Also from the few books I read on the subject it is quite possible that Agent Connoly’s fellow agents and immediate superior knew there was something wrong and ignored it for years. So yes, the US government was complicit.

And Pakistan arrested those that tipped us off to bin Laden. It is hard to think that highest levels in Pakistan were not complicit.

Of course this was the same government that charged a CIA agent with murder when he killed an assassin that was shooting at him with a machine pistol.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

When it comes to foreign policy Ron Paul doesn’t know his ass from first base, and you are not far behind him judging by your post.

[/quote]

He knows his ass is home plate. His tiny moobs are second base.