T Nation

Romans 2

Let’s go.

Dearest Christopher in a rather bold move a while back went to my Facebook page and posted this http://www.almostnotcatholic.com/2012/06/myth-busters-catholicism-teaches.html article by a guy named Brent. The debate that ensued was aborted by Brother Chris for reasons I will allow him to elucidate if he were to find himself so inclined. That debate hopefully will continue here. I have submitted this post on the page where that article now sits. [quote]I apologize for bad mouthing one of your homeboys, though I promise you it was NOT behind his back. Nonetheless it was unproductive and inappropriate in that context. I will do better from now on. I have attempted very cordial contact with you privately without success. Can I ask you to point me to an authoritative Catholic (Big C Chris) commentary wherein I might find a commensurately authoritative exegetical, expository treatment of the 14th through 16th verses of the second chapter of the epistle of St. Paul to “all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints”? I’m asking you nicely AND inviting you to participate in this debate.

A debate that was started once and unceremoniously interrupted. Your friend has chosen this: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/catholic_qa_resumes?pageNo=1#bottom as the location. Personally, I liked it on my Facebook page, but will do it anywhere. Look, I’m speaking softly and charitably right now, I mean that. I believe with all my heart that the view you have espoused on this page is a dangerous misrepresentation of the gospel and souls will be lost because of it. Is it possible for me to disagree on conviction without being painted as a raving protestant nutcase and have this post rejected as well?

If we were sitting across a table from one another so that you could see my face and hear my voice you would know that I am not looking to incite bloodless violence here. I WILL however tell you up front that I do intend to demonstrate that it is not possible that the content of this page and the doctrine of holy scripture both be true.[/quote] I repeated it here in case he refuses to post it there which I’m not saying he will or will not do. In the meantime, my beloved Brother Chris. Where were we? (This didn’t need another thread in my opinion, but OK.) I actually don’t even remember where we were now.
EDIT:
Could I ask you to be good enough to defend the view in the article on the above page of the almostnotcatholic website based on the 14th through 16th verses of the second of Romans as your friend most assuredly does attempt to do in the comments that follow? He’s not alone btw. The incomparable Patrick of Atlanta championed this very thing here many times and I have also seen others simply quote it without further comment as if the mere mention of the passage were enough to stop the wagging tongues of all who dare whisper a protest at the clear mishandling of the text by the anointed apostles in Rome.

There are many such mishandlings one could point to, but this one is especially egregious. Even Bodyguard, who hates my guts, sided with me against our friend Cortes when this came up last year. (yes I know that doesn’t actually prove anything Chris)

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Dearest Christopher in a rather bold move a while back went to my Facebook page and posted this http://www.almostnotcatholic.com/2012/06/myth-busters-catholicism-teaches.html article by a guy named Brent. The debate that ensued was aborted by Brother Chris for reasons I will allow him to elucidate if he were to find himself so inclined.[/quote]

You really wish for me to give reason why?

Because you searched out my friends and harassed them by emailing and commenting on their personal and business websites and continued to disrespect me and the privilege I allowed to you in having contact with people who are important to me…after I asked you to stop insulting my friends, nevertheless you continued to contact and harass my friends so I deleted you from my Facebook since you could not handle not attacking my friends.

Actually it was, you repeatedly called my friends cowards. Why you insist on lying about this I am not sure.

Yes, especially when you are so raging mad (can only assume its from your self admitted anti-Catholic bigotry, which you also admit you have no problem with being a bigot) so hard you mistake one person for a completely different person and call them a coward on their own comment box and then evolve into a tantrum to the point that said person has to reiterate the rules that personal attacks of himself or other persons are not to be tolerated on his business website.

Hopefully.

Haydock Commentary.

Why anyone, but me, would entertain your request for a debate after being bullied over the internet is beyond me.

By your actions.

I’m sure.

Does one protest much?

Only because you do not understand what the Catholic view is, even though it is rather plainly explained and I have made the definitions and distinctions quite clear to you several times…about ten thousand times…in your words.

No, but your actions that follow suit gives your hand away.

No, I don’t suspect you’d settle for anything less the blood violence and tossing of Catholics or “Rome” into the pit of hell.

I only pray that we both come to the truth.

Why he would allow someone so rude to have the privilege to post anything on his site?

[quote]In the meantime, my beloved Brother Chris. Where were we? (This didn’t need another thread in my opinion, but OK.) I actually don’t even remember where we were now.
EDIT:
Could I ask you to be good enough to defend the view in the article on the above page of the almostnotcatholic website based on the 14th through 16th verses of the second of Romans as your friend most assuredly does attempt to do in the comments that follow? He’s not alone btw. The incomparable Patrick of Atlanta championed this very thing here many times and I have also seen others simply quote it without further comment as if the mere mention of the passage were enough to stop the wagging tongues of all who dare whisper a protest at the clear mishandling of the text by the anointed apostles in Rome.

There are many such mishandlings one could point to, but this one is especially egregious.[/quote]

It’s already given on the page. You wish to go forth by proving the view is wrong, your serve.

Then why do you wish to point that out? Oh, that’s right argumentum ad populum.

Haydock writes on Romans 2:14-15:

“When the Gentiles…do by nature, or naturally, that is, without having received any written law, these men are a law to themselves, and have it written in their hearts, as to the existence of a God, and their reason tells them, that many sins are unlawful: they may also do some actions that are morally good, as by giving alms to relieve the poor, honouring their parents, &c. not that these actions, morally good, will suffice for their justification of themselves, or make them deserve a supernatural reward in the kingdom of heaven; but God, out of his infinite mercy, will give them some supernatural graces, by which they come to know, and believe, that he will reward their souls for eternity. Such, says St. Chrysostom, were the dispositions of Melchisedech, Job, Cornelius the Centurion, &c. (Witham)”

Am I allowed to answer all this without you crying about my being a meanie to your friends? I am definitely learning some lessons about Catholicism’s deleterious effects on people through all this. I’ve never seen you this way Chris. The above is a pathetic display, but thank God He has kept you thus far from… we’ll get there in a minute. I promised you I would not disrespect your friends in your presence. I feel that the outrageous misrepresentations above effectively release me from that promise. It is not possible for me to defend myself otherwise. I am being more than gracious here. I am asking you to allow me to respond. Can I do that. So we can finally get to Romans 2 AND the debate on authority which it directly touches?
EDIT: My first post in this thread was to Brent who predictably refused to allow it the light of day on his site. Not you. Just to be clear.

Brent has included the following now on that page http://www.almostnotcatholic.com/2012/06/myth-busters-catholicism-teaches.html In Red yet.

[quote]UPDATE: One should note that my inclusion of Romans 2:14-16 in no way implies that there is some kind of salvation a part from Christ. The Law, first and foremost, accuses of wrong – either given in revelation or through natural law written on our hearts (in this way it is the “schoolmaster”). However, it is precisely because God can judge the heart, and we cannot, that we cannot simply assign large groups of people to help for whom we cannot see their heart. God gives sufficient grace to all. Only he knows if they respond to that grace or resist it. If they resist it, they damn themselves.

I’m including this update because someone was concerned that my rendering of Romans 2:14-16 would lead souls to hell. The problem with that idea is that if you are conscious enough to even consider the ramifications of this passage, you are likely outside its scope.[/quote] I responded with this: [quote]<<< “I’m including this update because someone was concerned that my rendering of Romans 2:14-16 would lead souls to hell. The problem with that idea is that if you are conscious enough to even consider the ramifications of this passage, you are likely outside its scope.”
I am that someone and for the record I never thought you believed anything different than your above explanation. That IS the object of my concern. May I ask you what you mean by this: “if you are conscious enough to even consider the ramifications of this passage, you are likely outside its scope.” I honestly don’t think I understand. >>>[/quote] I’ll try again. I AM NOT SAYING that Catholics (big C) believe that anybody goes to heaven without Christ. I AM SAYING THAT THEY ARE SAYING that people can be saved IN CHRIST without knowing it. This update is better than nuthin, but it ain’t the same as actually having a conversation. Which it appears maybe we’ll be having here by my copying his remarks to me there without them really being to me OR there =] LOL!! Catholics (Big C Chris) is the silliest people LOL!! Wadda blast LOL!!

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

You really wish for me to give reason why?

Because you searched out my friends and harassed them by emailing and commenting on their personal and business websites and continued to disrespect me and the privilege I allowed to you in having contact with people who are important to me…after I asked you to stop insulting my friends, nevertheless you continued to contact and harass my friends so I deleted you from my Facebook since you could not handle not attacking my friends.[/quote]

Wow.

So I picked up the gist of it from BC’s post. If what he’s said is even remotely accurate…

Tirib, I’m not taking you off ignore to see your reply, but it’s honestly time for you to seek a bit of help. And that’s not me being a smart-ass. If these events are true, as related here, then it’s time for you put the internet down and seek counseling. What has just been shared isn’t normal, healthy, and it’s rather worrisome. You’ve expressed troubles with addictions in the past, but it sounds to me you’ve replaced it with another.

More recently you’ve expressed some hardships with work, keeping your home, etc. You’ve come out if it…changed. You’re not the same person at all. You’re now obsessed with calling out Catholics, tracking them down, their friends down, and ‘taking the fight to them.’ Again, this is alarming behavior. I’m relieved to have stuck to my “no personal info” policy back when I was still taking your PM’s, despite your requests for e-mails and phone calls.

Put away your pride, your crusade, close out the browser, and start sorting out your thoughts and social skills. Get professional help. I honestly wish you the best of luck with it, and the courage to realize something has gone wrong.

BC, my advice? Drop this and refrain from communicating. That’s not healthy, what you’ve described. If you’ve honestly related these events, break off from this.

=] Just wait until Chris tells me I can respond. I know he will because He would NEVER play the same games his friends do. I’m being polite and doing the honorable thing in asking that he allow me to speak freely because I promised him I would not show my disdain for his friends in his presence, but alas, that will not be possible if I am to respond to the misrepresentations on this page. I do not believe that Chris is a dishonest man, but he HAS misrepresented the relevant circumstances of the events he reports. Yes, he can do that without being dishonest. You truth haters will be left once again without a target.

And you Sloth are a REAL disappointment. Attempting to portray me as a dangerous weirdo. I was reaching out to you because of genuine affection and I HAVE much private information about people here who are free to either divulge that or not. I would go to my grave in torment before ever betraying the trust of ANYBODY like that, including you… still. You are proving my point. At least I hope you are.

That pathetic religion has reduced, when the rubber meets the road, a man I defended as “honest”, “honorable” and “godly” to this. I held you up as an example to Chris in private. Someone he should look up to. Wadda let down. Maybe I’ve been TOO generous with my assessment of Catholicism after all.

Thunderbolt. I actually expected more outta the serious Catholics than I did from you. A typical Christ denying godless modernist liberal. I left you alone on purpose. You weren’t in any danger of anybody takin you seriously as a Christian anyway. Though you are a brilliant political analyst. Brilliant period. A thing I would never attempt to take away from you.

Here they all line up to attack lil ol me. Push oughta be here next. The parade wouldn’t be complete without the wife swapping whoremonger. All this time and you people know NOTHING about me. Except Chris. Don’t ya Chris? Speaking of which once again. Do I have your permission to respond? Get that knot outta your stomach and say yes like the man I really desperately want to believe you still are. I do have YOUR cell phone number don’t I Christopher. For a couple years now. You have mine too. Tell these people how sorry you are that you gave it to me because of how I’ve abused it. Go ahead.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Thunderbolt. I actually expected more outta the serious Catholics than I did from you. A typical Christ denying godless modernist liberal. I left you alone on purpose. You weren’t in any danger of anybody takin you seriously as a Christian anyway. Though you are a brilliant political analyst. Brilliant period. A thing I would never attempt to take away from you.[/quote]

I’ll be sure and alert my pastor that you said so.

In any event, Sloth is right. Take a break, get help.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:<<< I’ll be sure and alert my pastor that you said so. >>>[/quote]Suit yourself, but if your views are any indication I have a feeling he won’t care any more than he does what God’s holy word says. [quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:<<< In any event, Sloth is right. Take a break, get help. [/quote] I’ll be sure and alert my pastor that you said so. He has a good sense of humor. Really man. lol You couldn’t, so its’ not your fault, but you have no idea what I’m dealing with and how little time overall I spend on any of this. I’m constantly guilty of typos because I’m squeezing my posts in between other stuff I have to do. Anytime you’re ready to actually join in one of these discussions and actually say something more substantive than cheap shots at me I continue to welcome you.

Romans 2? The chapter where St. Paul says states that each is judged according to his works?
Funny story, St. Paul didn’t really write that, that chapter was inserted by ‘Igor the Passive-Aggressive’ in the 2nd century in order to lead the sheep astray by prompting them to treat each other with respect and act in a moral way. Igor was adopted by the Romans elite after being raised by a pride of lions for most of his life. The taught him how to read and write and set him in to sabotage the Christian sect by intercepting Pauls letters and adding things about doing good works and loving their neighbors in order to lead them astray from faith alone. He was the second stage of the mule express from Ephesus to Rome, where he hurriedly scratched in chapter two in the letter to the Romans…
True story. Chapter 2 is a fake, it says that salvation is for all and that we will be judged by our works, only a total moron would believe that.

I already said explain Romans 2 and how Catholics get it wrong.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
May I ask you what you mean by this: “if you are conscious enough to even consider the ramifications of this passage, you are likely outside its scope.” I honestly don’t think I understand. >>>[/quote]

I believe he is saying that he does not believe someone who can consider this passage would be within the scope of invisible ignorance.

Repent and believe. God love you.

You’re gonna play the Push trick on me huh Chris. Accuse and then just say “let it go and move on”? Is that it? You don’t want me to address what you’ve said about me here? Just throw your rocks and run inside?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You’re gonna play the Push trick on me huh Chris. Accuse and then just say “let it go and move on”? Is that it? You don’t want me to address what you’ve said about me here? Just throw your rocks and run inside?[/quote]

Go ahead. I’m not perfect, that’s evident from my past that I’ve openly discussed on these forums.

A reminder to those who are truly interested in winning people over to Christ. The worst possible scenario is to have two (or more) Christians bickering back and forth in public view. Why don’t you guys do us all a favor and take this to PM?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I already said explain Romans 2 and how Catholics get it wrong.[/quote]

Yeah, but you didn’t put the back story… :wink:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You’re gonna play the Push trick on me huh Chris. Accuse and then just say “let it go and move on”? Is that it? You don’t want me to address what you’ve said about me here? Just throw your rocks and run inside?[/quote]

Go ahead. I’m not perfect, that’s evident from my past that I’ve openly discussed on these forums.[/quote]I am not perfect either and you continue to make me proud Chris. I’ll give you sincere credit and continue to hold my high view of you as a young man and yes even as my brother as inconsistent as some may find that. However I am at work I desperately need and will have to wait until tonight. Life IS an adventure in Christ my friend.