Rogue US Soldier Accused of Killing 16 Civilians

[quote]gonepostal wrote:
I think it’s stupid. I feel like a lot of people are trying to have this portrayed as a civilian trial should be portrayed. Wrong, we’re still at war. This guy is technically still innocent until proven guilty. Everybody is acting like this guy really stirred the shit storm pot on this one. Not really, Oh look they’re killing each other and us again…what’s new? These “rioters and protesters” are most likely Taliban.[/quote]

Yep you find me a a situation were a grown man caught killing 9 kids can be innocent.

I get the PR stand point, I do. It sucks ass somebody had to tarnish the US reputation in Afghanistan. I guess my beef is just how quickly everybody is screaming guilty and off with his head, when he hasn’t even gone to trial yet.

[quote]gonepostal wrote:
I get the PR stand point, I do. It sucks ass somebody had to tarnish the US reputation in Afghanistan. I guess my beef is just how quickly everybody is screaming guilty and off with his head, when he hasn’t even gone to trial yet.[/quote]

Ok, then I have less beef with your post. I was responding more to how I perceived it was worded then.

Personally, I would say that most of the facts are in, and been pretty well corroborated by several sources (the people seeing him leaving his post, the patrol that gets him, etc). Now I won’t say that all the questions are answered, but for me his guilt is pretty much illustrated at this point. Unless you maybe have some information I haven’t read about yet maybe? I dunno. I might be missing something but I’m pretty sure this is a relatively straightforward case.

I will however agree with your point about the presumption of guilt in the media age. That is something I’ve written about at length before.

lol Understandable I think it was late and I might have been sipping on grandpa’s cough medicine sometimes I ramble.

I’m partial to soldiers. He ain’t guilty til it’s proven.

Also the thought of an investigation being conducted by anybody other than the US is comical.

[quote]gonepostal wrote:
lol Understandable I think it was late and I might have been sipping on grandpa’s cough medicine sometimes I ramble.

I’m partial to soldiers. He ain’t guilty til it’s proven.

Also the thought of an investigation being conducted by anybody other than the US is comical.[/quote]

I’m partial (raised with a retired military dad) to soldiers as well, but I am also currently around a lot of them who I get to see in less than stellar light off duty, so I am not quite so partial. But at any rate, my scientist’s sense has kicked in having evaluated all the evidence I have to this point. I tend to do that regardless, but I understand your point. I think in a sense it is almost unavoidable (much as it was in the Penn State scandal) because of how incredibly BIG the scandal/crime is. Almost like jury pool contamination.

I do not think that an investigation should be conducted by anybody other than the US. However at the same time there is no way we can win th battle if we do do that. Perhaps we run the investigation with Afghan “liasons” so they can see we’re not hiding anything? I’m not sure. That won’t help our case with the civilians regardless.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]gonepostal wrote:
lol Understandable I think it was late and I might have been sipping on grandpa’s cough medicine sometimes I ramble.

I’m partial to soldiers. He ain’t guilty til it’s proven.

Also the thought of an investigation being conducted by anybody other than the US is comical.[/quote]

I’m partial (raised with a retired military dad) to soldiers as well, but I am also currently around a lot of them who I get to see in less than stellar light off duty, so I am not quite so partial. But at any rate, my scientist’s sense has kicked in having evaluated all the evidence I have to this point. I tend to do that regardless, but I understand your point. I think in a sense it is almost unavoidable (much as it was in the Penn State scandal) because of how incredibly BIG the scandal/crime is. Almost like jury pool contamination.

I do not think that an investigation should be conducted by anybody other than the US. However at the same time there is no way we can win th battle if we do do that. Perhaps we run the investigation with Afghan “liasons” so they can see we’re not hiding anything? I’m not sure. That won’t help our case with the civilians regardless.[/quote]

Absolutely I have no problem with liaisons, but I wouldn’t trust an Afghan to flush my turd.

Murder is murder I’m not debating that at all, but I don’t think people realize what it actually takes to be a soldier, especially a returning soldier. Shit! Most soldiers forget what they’re sacrificing when they start adventuring out on multiple deployments. A criminal is a criminal and nobody is excused from their actions by their previous history.

Like I said before I feel like everybody is throwing due process out the window with this guy. This guy is STILL an AMERICAN SOLDIER, he deserves the benefit of doubt and the due process of the law.

Also I have a real problem with your “less than stellar” performance statement there. You might be a military brat but I’m not convinced you have a clue what it actually costs to be a soldier.

lol sorry what did you’re scientist intuition think about OJ or Rubin Carter, or Mumia Abu-Jamal. Sorry those examples happen to black…it just happened that way.

[quote]

Massacre in Afghanistan

The news of a horrific brutal massacre of civilians in Afghanistan arrived in spurts yesterday accompanied with the news one lone soldier had come forward to turn himself in.

16 people, 9 of them children murdered in the middle of the night.

Not long after the initial report Reuters included some horrific witness accounts claiming the victims were murdered by a group of drunken American soldiers. This second account has traveled far and wide.

The online versions from multiple sources seem to have morphed so fast it’s difficult keeping track of changes but blogger b at Moon of Alabama copied a segment of the early Washington Post article that mentioned nothing of the witness accounts now included in their report . [/quote]

It seems that the villagers insist that there was more than one soldier carrying out the massacre. Given the US militaries past performance regarding such investigations, I believe that to be entirely possible.

[quote]orion wrote:

It seems that the villagers insist that there was more than one soldier carrying out the massacre. Given the US militaries past performance regarding such investigations, I believe that to be entirely possible.

[/quote]

Considering there have been six Afghan national army “allies” who turned their guns on NATO soldiers in the last two months, I’d say Afghans in general and Karzai - who called U.S. soldiers “demons,” should be apologising. Maybe apologies aren’t enough. Maybe we need to do more. Perhaps they need to be put in the right frame of mind before they’ll apologise. We should take steps to put them in that frame of mind.

[quote]gonepostal wrote:
lol sorry what did you’re scientist intuition think about OJ or Rubin Carter, or Mumia Abu-Jamal. Sorry those examples happen to black…it just happened that way.
[/quote]

Meh. OJ was and is guilty as far as I am concerned. However, I didn’t make that decision until well after the trial was underway–for the simple reason that there was a lot of uncertainty involved in the circumstances of the case initially. Carter was before my time. My point was simply that I tend to evaluate the evidence that I see and make a judgment from there as opposed to jumping on any bandwagons willy nilly, although I know it appeared so in this thread given my first posts. But I’d already read up on the incident before posting.

Regardless, as much he hasn’t gone to trial, I’m not going to apologize for my opinion. It’d be the same given the same circumstances regardless of whether he was a soldier or a civilian killer. I might be wrong, but if you’re honest with yourself I don’t think you believe him to be innocent either.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

It seems that the villagers insist that there was more than one soldier carrying out the massacre. Given the US militaries past performance regarding such investigations, I believe that to be entirely possible.

[/quote]

Considering there have been six Afghan national army “allies” who turned their guns on NATO soldiers in the last two months, I’d say Afghans in general and Karzai - who called U.S. soldiers “demons,” should be apologising. Maybe apologies aren’t enough. Maybe we need to do more. Perhaps they need to be put in the right frame of mind before they’ll apologise. We should take steps to put them in that frame of mind.[/quote]

Sure.

They had their neighbors massacred and their very first thought was:

Stick it on the Americans.

How deluded are you?

Plus, bonus points for wanting to teach Asians the art of prostration.

We tend to forget that there will be many young, impressionable afghans who have little to no grasp of international affairs, and their “world” comprises of their village and immediate locality.

The only thing they’ll grow up knowing is that some foreigners set up a base outside their village, and then one of them massacred a bunch a kids they were growing up with.

Chances are they’ll grow up pretty pissed at foreign soldiers.

Very sad situation, like I said before, and I can see absolutely no good coming of it.

Let them put themselves in our shoes. All some of these guys know is that Afghans are trying to blow them up all the time. And the reason they’re there in the first place is because they keep blowing people up all the time. When you keep blowing people up they don’t like it.

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
We tend to forget that there will be many young, impressionable afghans who have little to no grasp of international affairs, and their “world” comprises of their village and immediate locality.

The only thing they’ll grow up knowing is that some foreigners set up a base outside their village, and then one of them massacred a bunch a kids they were growing up with.

Chances are they’ll grow up pretty pissed at foreign soldiers.

Very sad situation, like I said before, and I can see absolutely no good coming of it.
[/quote]

That is precisely my point.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

It seems that the villagers insist that there was more than one soldier carrying out the massacre. Given the US militaries past performance regarding such investigations, I believe that to be entirely possible.

[/quote]

Considering there have been six Afghan national army “allies” who turned their guns on NATO soldiers in the last two months, I’d say Afghans in general and Karzai - who called U.S. soldiers “demons,” should be apologising. Maybe apologies aren’t enough. Maybe we need to do more. Perhaps they need to be put in the right frame of mind before they’ll apologise. We should take steps to put them in that frame of mind.[/quote]

The thing you said that is important is what Robert Bales was reacting to, namely the killing of 2 American’s a week or so ago and some NATO troops. Its been written only by one journalist that this killing was about revenge. He claims that if Bales was so off his rocker he would have just started shooting American troops. Instead he went and terrorized what is not 22 or more Afghans, 9 children and the rest men and women. The press also fails to point out that General John Allen spoke to his troops after the killing of the 2 Americans and told them they have to be professional and that they must do their job and not seek revenge.
As Robert Fisk, the journalist said, " no one listened to General Allen".

[quote]silee wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

It seems that the villagers insist that there was more than one soldier carrying out the massacre. Given the US militaries past performance regarding such investigations, I believe that to be entirely possible.

[/quote]

Considering there have been six Afghan national army “allies” who turned their guns on NATO soldiers in the last two months, I’d say Afghans in general and Karzai - who called U.S. soldiers “demons,” should be apologising. Maybe apologies aren’t enough. Maybe we need to do more. Perhaps they need to be put in the right frame of mind before they’ll apologise. We should take steps to put them in that frame of mind.[/quote]

The thing you said that is important is what Robert Bales was reacting to, namely the killing of 2 American’s a week or so ago and some NATO troops. Its been written only by one journalist that this killing was about revenge. He claims that if Bales was so off his rocker he would have just started shooting American troops. Instead he went and terrorized what is not 22 or more Afghans, 9 children and the rest men and women. The press also fails to point out that General John Allen spoke to his troops after the killing of the 2 Americans and told them they have to be professional and that they must do their job and not seek revenge.
As Robert Fisk, the journalist said, " no one listened to General Allen".[/quote]

I’m not interested in your gibberish. I asked if you were a troll. You come back with more crap and then you call Robert Fisk a “journalist.” So the answer is yes? You are a troll? Okay, bye now.

[quote]orion wrote:

It seems that the villagers insist that there was more than one soldier carrying out the massacre. Given the US militaries past performance regarding such investigations, I believe that to be entirely possible.

[/quote]

On the contrary, look at what they did to Frank Wuterich.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]silee wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

It seems that the villagers insist that there was more than one soldier carrying out the massacre. Given the US militaries past performance regarding such investigations, I believe that to be entirely possible.

[/quote]

Considering there have been six Afghan national army “allies” who turned their guns on NATO soldiers in the last two months, I’d say Afghans in general and Karzai - who called U.S. soldiers “demons,” should be apologising. Maybe apologies aren’t enough. Maybe we need to do more. Perhaps they need to be put in the right frame of mind before they’ll apologise. We should take steps to put them in that frame of mind.[/quote]

The thing you said that is important is what Robert Bales was reacting to, namely the killing of 2 American’s a week or so ago and some NATO troops. Its been written only by one journalist that this killing was about revenge. He claims that if Bales was so off his rocker he would have just started shooting American troops. Instead he went and terrorized what is not 22 or more Afghans, 9 children and the rest men and women. The press also fails to point out that General John Allen spoke to his troops after the killing of the 2 Americans and told them they have to be professional and that they must do their job and not seek revenge.
As Robert Fisk, the journalist said, " no one listened to General Allen".[/quote]

I’m not interested in your gibberish. I asked if you were a troll. You come back with more crap and then you call Robert Fisk a “journalist.” So the answer is yes? You are a troll? Okay, bye now.[/quote]

Name calling doesn’t get at the truth or foster understanding and consquently helping us to learn how not to make the same mistakes and or to see how others are effected by war and by “US”. You are only concerned with a continuation of lies and falsehoods. I believe that’s what has been called a subject for ideology.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

It seems that the villagers insist that there was more than one soldier carrying out the massacre. Given the US militaries past performance regarding such investigations, I believe that to be entirely possible.

[/quote]

On the contrary, look at what they did to Frank Wuterich.[/quote]

This one?

[quote]
Originally charged with murder, the charges were later reduced to involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assault, and on January 23, 2012 Wuterich pled guilty to a single count of negligent dereliction of duty as part of an agreement with military prosecutors. In exchange, all other charges were dropped.[1][2] Wuterich was sentenced on January 24 and convicted to forfeiture of two-thirds of pay for three months and reduction in rank to private. [/quote]

Yeah, I am sure the Iraquis were deeply impressed by how swiftly justice was served.

And of course:

[quote]
On April 17, 2007, the Marine Corps dropped all charges against Sgt. Sanick P. De la Cruz in exchange for his testimony. Seven other Marines involved in the incident have also been granted immunity.[56]

On August 9, 2007, all charges against Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt and Capt. Randy Stone were dropped.[43] On October 19, Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt’s commanding officer decided the charges should be lowered to involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment and aggravated assault.[10]

On September 18, 2007, all charges against Captain Lucas McConnell were dropped in exchange for immunity and his cooperation with the investigation.[57]

On March 28, 2008, all charges against LCpl. Stephen Tatum were dropped.[58]

On June 17, 2008, all charges against Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani were dismissed by the military judge citing unlawful command influence.[59] The Marine Corps appealed that ruling in 2008.[60] On March 17, 2009, a military appeals court upheld the dismissal of the war crimes charges against Chessani.[61] Facing an administrative Board of Inquiry, it also found no misconduct and recommended that Chessani be allowed to retire without loss of rank.[62]

On June 5, 2008, 1st Lt. Andrew Grayson was acquitted of all charges stemming from the Haditha incident. He had been charged with deleting photos of the deceased Iraqis in order to obstruct the investigation. He had also been charged with failing to notify the Marine Corps administrative chain of command of his legal status when his term of service was expired and he was discharged from the Marine Corps.[63] [/quote]

[quote]orion wrote:

This one?

[/quote]

Yes that one. The Haditha “massacre” was trumped up bullshit. It was debunked years ago. Didn’t you know that? Or are you going to quote Robert Fisk like ‘silee?’

http://macsmind.com/wordpress/2012/03/idiot-bbc-writer-robert-fisk-still-lying-about-haditha/