Rifle Lovers

This is the rifle. Why? It never stops. It keeps going on and on and on. Well until you run out of bullets unless you’re an actor of course!

Build your own. It’s easy and cheaper than just buying an AR15. The bonus is you get to understand how it works.

For more info on building one, or buying one go to AR15.com and browse the forums.

Everyone should have a battle rifle. AK47’s are for people who dont like to hit what they shoot at.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

No, my friends, my beef with the M16 is its cartridge. Who the fuck had the bright idea to equip American combat soldiers with a rifle firing a varmint round with which to kill their enemies? Must have been a European. :wink:

[/quote]

His name was Robert Macnamara.

The original 55gr ammuntion and the 1:12 rifle twist would cause the round to tumble upon impact with anything, and at 3000 fps when that happens it tumbles and fragments, causing unbeleivable devastation. Most problems came about with the 62gr tungsten tipped ammo. These were shot from the newer a2 rifles with 1:7 twist and fail to fragment. This ammo was conceived of when the Chinese and Russians started issuing body armor, because it will reliably zip through most body armor out there.

Currently being rushed into production is even a newer round with an even heavier bullet (72gr if memory serves me) that should preform similarly to the 55gr rounds. They had to go heavier instead of back to 55gr rounds because of the 1:7 twist most all the rifles in service have now. This brings the round back to the brink of instability with 1:7 twist, which will allow it to tumble upon impact once again. The heavier bullet will also help with longer range accuracy as 1000 yard shooters usually go with 77 or 80gr. Wish we had these in Mogadishu.

So the ammo problem is being dealt with.

[quote]Dane Percival wrote:

And really when I dropped a Bull Elk with one shot @ 235yr with my .223rem rifle, That told me they have plenty of power for any CQ tactical assult situation, its just all about shot placement. [/quote]

Really!? In Colorado it’s illegal to hunt any big game with anything smaller than a .24 caliber.

Thank you for wording this more articulately than I had the time or attention span for. :^)

Bob

[quote]kane101nod wrote:
In general response concerning the 5.56’s tendency to only wound vs the 7.62’s kill.

One must look into the background of the creation of a smaller round, and the McNamarian economics behind them, with his usual lack of ‘moral concerns.’ The 5.56 round was created in a time period when the threat was the communist ‘hoardes.’ Much as with land mines, when outnumbered, it was better to wound many than kill a few.

The idea behind this and the tumbling 5.56 was to massively burden the REMFs, and overwhelm the medical facilites, transportation lines, production, etc., all because the enemy armies would have to care for the wounded, as opposed to just burying the dead.

Also having many wounded is highly demoralizing and a great ‘pain’ to all aspects of the enemy’s military machine. Compare the effort that goes into two different scenarios.

  1. soldier gets hit and dies. (body disposed of, stuff given away, letter home, end of story) to

#2. soldier hit and wounded, has to be rescued, which takes other men off their combat duties and makes them targets also, getting him to hospital, using Dr.'s time and $, and it just goes on and on.

What must be clear however is that both rounds were intended to remove an enemy combatants ‘ability to fight.’ The 5.56 just was LESS likely to kill on single hits.
-k[/quote]

Conversely, in MA one can only hunt with a shotgun or a .22 - no large bore ammunition.

Come to think of it, I’m not even sure if you can use a deer slug with your shotgun… probably.

Then again, I could be wrong; been a while since I read up on the laws, always changing thanks to one Tedward Kennedy.

Bob

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Really!? In Colorado it’s illegal to hunt any big game with anything smaller than a .24 caliber.[/quote]

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Dane Percival wrote:

And really when I dropped a Bull Elk with one shot @ 235yr with my .223rem rifle, That told me they have plenty of power for any CQ tactical assult situation, its just all about shot placement.

Really!? In Colorado it’s illegal to hunt any big game with anything smaller than a .24 caliber.[/quote]

As it should be. It is irresponsible to hunt large game with a .223.

Excellent shot placement is often the exception, not the rule.

If you need perfection to succeed you may find yourself failing more often than if you would like.

Use enough gun!

I received this a couple weeks ago. Seems fitting in this thread.


This was sent to me by a Semper Fi, UAL retired, east coast
type.


Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans
and interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to
spend time with my son Jordan, who was on his first leave
since returning from Iraq. He is well (a little thin), and
already bored. He will be returning to Iraq for a second
tour in early 06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4
more years. He loves the Marine Corps and is actually
looking forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi. Aka:
Fort Apache. He saw and did a lot and the following is what
he told me about weapons, equipment, tactics and other
miscellaneous info which may be of interest to you. Nothing
is by any means classified. No politics here, just a
Marine with a birds eye views opinions:

  1. The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems
    with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is
    everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after
    coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more
    popular because its lighter and shorter, but it has jamming
    problems also. They like the ability to mount the various
    optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny
    rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert
    environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor
    penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there
    and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put
    the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead
    insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

  2. The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed
    light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered
    a piece of shit. Chronic jamming problems, most of which
    require partial disassembly. (that fun in the middle of a
    firefight).

  3. The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well
    in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge.
    The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly
    common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple
    times and still in the fight.

  4. Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used
    frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

  5. The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed
    machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a
    beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable
    and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a
    vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted
    and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews
    up the structure over there.

  6. The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. Ma
    deuce is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The
    ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every
    time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

  7. The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round
    out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is
    trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can
    reliably be expected to put em down with a torso hit. The
    special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work)
    use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old
    government model .45s are being re-issued en masse.

  8. The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk,
    mostly in a modified version to special ops guys.
    Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low
    power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy
    environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

  9. The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up.
    Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight
    train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers
    ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy.
    Definitely here to stay.

  10. The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but
    some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700s. Great
    performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great
    effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour
    in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcocks
    record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

  11. The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at
    approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up
    small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad
    news: Hot as shit to wear, almost unbearable in the summer
    heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now
    goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bullshit
    about the old body armor making our guys vulnerable to the
    IEDs was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and
    body armor doesn’t make any difference at all in most
    cases.

  12. Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up.
    Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own
    the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening
    prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during
    movement by our hunter-killer teams. Weve all seen the
    videos.

  13. Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and
    personal lights are Surefires, and the troops love em.
    Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34
    Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting
weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!! With
all our technology, its the WWII and Vietnam era weapons
that everybody wants!!! The infantry fighting is frequent,
up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

  1. Mostly AK47s. The entire country is an arsenal. Works
    better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian
    round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are
    also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots
    like shit. Undisciplined spray and pray type fire. However,
    they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have
    apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how
    hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school
    that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be
    easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of
    toughness. Lets just say they know better now.

  2. The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our
    guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dogshit. The enemy
    responded to our up-armored humvees by aiming at the
    windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a
    lot of our guys.

  3. The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from
    old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery
    shells. A lot found in Jordans area were in abandoned cars.
    The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire
    them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the
    explosions are enormous. You’re not safe in any vehicle,
    even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing
    our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more
    sophisticated shape charges (Iranian) specifically designed
    to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IEDs are
    supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists
    (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and
    tactics. Thats why the attacks have been so deadly lately.
    Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being
    shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look
    like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find
    about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys
    are unsung heroes of this war.

  4. Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era
    122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more
    prevalent. One of Jordans NCOs lost a leg to one. These
    weapons cause a lot of damage inside the wire. Jordans base
    was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and
    rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and
    cause fatigue (it did). More of a psychological weapon than
    anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of
    vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter
    of seconds.

  5. Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most
    communication is by cell and satellite phones, and also by
    email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for
    navigation and Google earth for overhead views of our
    positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and
    prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF
    THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with
    their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are
    treasure troves of Intel when captured.

Who are the bad guys?

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda
group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and
Ramadi). These are mostly foreigners, non-Iraqi Sunni Arab
Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe). Most
enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge
and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down
the at line which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates
River that weve been hitting hard for the last few months.
Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end
up as suicide bombers or in sacrifice squads. Most,
however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual
suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.) These are the
guys running around murdering civilians en masse and
cutting heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are
Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and the
best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians for
years). In the Baghdad area and south, most of the
insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites.
The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the
Iraqi local govt., the police forces and the Army. The
have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the
Iran-Iraq war in the early 80s. Most of the Saddam
loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their
asses kicked every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal
Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and
still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams
in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Aks
and RPGs directly at our bases just to probe the defenses.
They get mowed down like grass every time. (see the M2 and
M240 above). Jordans base was hit like this often. When
engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building,
probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand.
Instead, we call in air and thats the end of that more
often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha
Whiskey Romeos (Allahs Waiting Room). We have the laser
guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast movers,
mostly Marine F-18s, are taking an ever increasing toll on
the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter
gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons
with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night.
Interestingly, artillery is
hardly used at all. Fun fact: The enemy death toll is
supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why were seeing
less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber
shit. The new strategy is simple: attrition.

The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of
civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we
can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools,
hospitals and (especially) Mosques are locations where they
meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to
when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for

civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder
without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the
Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family
members (especially children) is common to influence people
they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as
local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc).

The first thing our guys are told is don’t get captured.
They know that if captured they will be tortured and
beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties
for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This
motivates the criminal element who otherwise don’t give
a shit about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were
actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi.
As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death.
Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqis are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren’t
worth a shit. Most do okay with American support. Finding
leaders is hard, but they are getting better. It is widely
viewed that Zarqawis use of suicide bombers, en masse,
against the civilian population was a serious tactical
mistake. Many Iraqis were galvanized and the caliber of
recruits in the Army and the police forces went up, along
with their motivation. It also led to an exponential
increase in good intel because the Iraqis are sick of the
insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly
pro-American and fearless fighters.

According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high.
They not only believe they are winning, but that they are
winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what
they see in the American press, whom they almost
universally view as against them. The embedded reporters
are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties
at a rate of 20-1 and then see shit like Are we losing in
Iraq on TV and the print media. For the most part, they are
satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership. Bottom
line though, and they all say this, there are not enough
guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of
the insurgency, primarily because there aren’t enough
troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and
Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just cant stand the
thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course,
permanent US bases there).

Anyway guys, thats it, hope you found it interesting, I
sure did.

Hopefully newer rounds like the 6.8 spc will fix the power issue that has traditionally been the knock on the AR15/M16 in .223. I still believe that the AR15 platform is more versatile than any other weapon system out there. The damn thing can be customized with off the shelf parts any way you want. It also handles better than any rifle I know of in buildings. I think you would be hard pressed to equip an M14 properly for CQB. I dont know of any that are in police service(as that is my field) for this reason. Well, that and administrative weenies are terrified of the bigger round.

The M14 would probably be right at home on the modern battlefield however. Vastly superior to the AK47, except in
price. it is a fantastic rifle and is on my must have list for sure.

[quote]BH6 wrote:
CEZAR wrote:
What “spray and pray” isn’t considered a viable tactic?

“Sray and pray” is called “Suppression”! It sounds more tactical, and then you can say, “Gunny, I didn’t miss, I was supressing the enemy.”

Semper Fidelis[/quote]

Nice, but I imagine the GySgt replying “that’s good devil…if you were the SAW gunner. Now hit something” LOL

[quote]Chewman wrote:
I received this a couple weeks ago. Seems fitting in this thread.


This was sent to me by a Semper Fi, UAL retired, east coast
type.


Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans
and interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to
spend time with my son Jordan, who was on his first leave
since returning from Iraq.

[/quote]

Sorry to break it to yall but this is total fiction, written by some gun rag reading Rambo. Talk with the infantry guys coming back, or better yet some of the contractors (most of whom can carry what ever they want), you’ll find the M16 and M4 have steller reputations.

Jordan isn’t real, he’s the figment of some wannabe’s imagination.

[quote]Celticwolf wrote:

Everyone should have a battle rifle. AK47’s are for people who dont like to hit what they shoot at.[/quote]

That’s precisely what I say, Wolf. A battle rifle is the thing to have.

But as Socrates said, let us define our terms. A battle rifle is a weapon taking a full-sized military cartridge such as .30-06 US, 7.62 NATO, 7.92 German, .303 British or 7.5 Swiss.

To quote Col. Cooper,

The battle rifle is a formidable instrument, and it does more things well than any other smallarm. The skilled rifleman can strike a decisive blow, in a very short time, at any distance at which he can clearly make out his adversary. [A battle rifle] can kill a man, or a horse, or wreck an automobile, with one round, at distances of half a mile or more, and when used in massed fire it can be effective at two miles.

Both the M16 and Kalashnikov are properly termed “assault carbines” because of their underpowered cartridges. The Guru again:

No man can do with a carbine what he could do with a rifle, but if what he can do with a rifle is not much, a carbine may serve him just as well. The carbine is the weapon for mass armies, whose motto is, “if you cannot shoot well, shoot a lot.”

The M16 and its ammunition may have improved vastly since 1962, and you’re more than welcome to it. Me, I’ll take my battle rifle.

[quote]Chewman wrote:

They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor
penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

[/quote]

Hmmm. How history repeats itself. Back at the beginning of the 20th century the Army was up against a bunch of opiated Muslim fanatics in the Philippines, who just didn’t seem to want to fall down and die when shot with the .38 Colt cartridge. The Army got smart and adopted the .45 automatic pistol, then they got stupid again a few years ago and switched over to the 9mm Parabellum (“for war”… what a laugh), essentially a truncated .38. Luckily some of our fighting men are beginning to realize that shooting your enemy with puny bullets is just as bad an idea in 2005 as it was in 1905.

[quote]algian wrote:
This is the rifle. Why? It never stops. It keeps going on and on and on. Well until you run out of bullets unless you’re an actor of course![/quote]

Ahhh, the Kalashnikov! Yes, it is the Energizer Bunny of warfare. I used to own one myself, along with an HK91. I sold both, along with my SPAS-12 (now that was a shotgun…although it’s about twice as heavy as it needs to be), and bought my M14.

The only other rifle I would consider ever buying is the Steyr-Mannlicher Scout Rifle. It is the Porsche 911 of combat rifles.

I rarely post on this site but i read it nearly everyday. The post about the retired marine has been confirmed as false, search HKpro.com or other weapons/miltary sites and it has been proven to be BS.

M-14, composite stock, reliable action,what’s not to love ? snipershide.com for you closet snipers.


Okay, all you bells and whistles CQB dudes. Try this one on for size. Believe it or not, it’s another M14.

It isn’t a rifle, but who doesn’t love the 1911 in .45acp?

[quote]Christomopher wrote:
It isn’t a rifle, but who doesn’t love the 1911 in .45acp?[/quote]

Only pussies, hoplophobes and Europeans, Chris. I know I love mine.


I never really bought into the suppressive fire crap. I under stand the idea of forcing the enemy to keep their head down and allow the unit to move, but eventually you are going to run out of ammo and then what?hit them in the head with a rock? I prefer the idea of killing the enemy in as few shots a possible, there for, forcing his head down permanently and allowing me to kill as many as possible before I have to fix bayonets. I?m just crazy that way. Cover me while I throw my rock!

Me Solomon Grundy