T Nation

Revised Beginner Cycle

Something very basic for a rank beginner. Revised.

C
W 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
W 6-12 Proviron 25mg 2x/d

PCT
W 13 Clomid 50mg 2x/d
W 14-16 Clomid 25mg/d

How does this look?

Could I get away with injecting twice a week and a slightly lower dose of Test for my first cycle or should I do it exactly as it’s set out?

Thanks.

I would stick to the E3D, however 2x a week would not be horrible. I would also bump up the clomid dose in weeks 14-16 to 50mg/day. Just my opinion.

Well, I’m not sure why you extended the proviron 2 weeks past the test. I assume you are thinking its to cover the clearance of the enanthate. However, remember enanthate has a 5 day half life so five days after your last shot you won’t have a whole bunch of test left over.
Its curious to see you run 6 weeks also. I’m guessing you have a certain quantity you get from your source. I do agree and practice the method of not commencing proviron for a few weeks after test starts. However, you might do better to start proviron in your week 4 or 5. I don’t think you need to run proviron more than a few days past your last injection.

Rarely is proviron considered or used as a PCT ancillary.
Regarding your clomid I’d concur with 2thepain with 50mg as the minimum daily dosage. Personally if you don’t run the taper and go with a serm only I’d be in favor of nolvadex. This is a highly debated topic but I cast my vote for nolva.

Ok. Revised again.

Very simple and just affordable for me.

C
W 1-10 Test E 250mg E3D or 2x/week
W 4-10 Proviron 25mg 2x/d

PCT
W 13-16 Clomid 50mg/d

OK keeping it affordable. I’m guessing you have 20ml of Enanthate right? If you go E3D you won’t make 10 full weeks if that matters to you at all. Also most people run a little extra clomid the first day to week. Exactly how much proviron do you have?

[quote]sapasion wrote:
OK keeping it affordable. I’m guessing you have 20ml of Enanthate right? If you go E3D you won’t make 10 full weeks if that matters to you at all. Also most people run a little extra clomid the first day to week. Exactly how much proviron do you have?[/quote]

12 amps of 250mg Test E (=12ml).
40 tabs of Proviron.

I’ll need to get more and Clomid or Nolva.

If I can get by taking 500mg (or even as low as 250mg) split over 2 injections per week that would be cool.

You realize you don’t have enough Test right. You’ll need 2 amps a week which only gives you six weeks which is a little short

[quote]sapasion wrote:
You realize you don’t have enough Test right. You’ll need 2 amps a week which only gives you six weeks which is a little short[/quote]

Yea. Looks like I’ll need more.
Just working out exactly what more I need then I’ll get it.

Do you think there is a point in doing just 250mg of Test a week - I know it shuts your T down anyway - or should I at a minimum go for the 500mg - even as a rank beginner?

Depends what your goals are. If you want to see significant results in terms of size and strength than 500 is the minimum. If you’re an older guy looking to turn back the clock a few decades then sure 250 will make that happen.

Bottom Line yes get more and run at least 500mg a week

If you’re pretty lean, I’d suggest ditching the 500 altogether.

Sure it’s your first cycle and 500 is pretty standard, but I personally think you’d be much more satisfied running 800-1000mg/wk for 8 weeks followed by a short stasis period and then a 5 week taper. That seems to be the most effective.

I hope you do realize that by running clomid or nolvadex post cycle it will require you to take 2-4 months off completely to ensure a full and effective recovery. Hopefully you understand that?

I cannot stress the shorter enough, especially if you are quite lean. Talk to randizzo if you’re having doubts. He’s doing marvelous.

World

There’s been no mention of an AI here. Do you have an aromatase inhibitor (AI) on hand, such as arimidex, to help battle the probable water retention and to prevent gyno? It’s cheap insurance.

[quote]World1187 wrote:
If you’re pretty lean, I’d suggest ditching the 500 altogether.

Sure it’s your first cycle and 500 is pretty standard, but I personally think you’d be much more satisfied running 800-1000mg/wk for 8 weeks followed by a short stasis period and then a 5 week taper. That seems to be the most effective.

[/quote]
World, I know we’ve discussed the short cycle concept repetitively but has your reason for the high dosage been discussed before?

[quote]5.0 wrote:
There’s been no mention of an AI here. Do you have an aromatase inhibitor (AI) on hand, such as arimidex, to help battle the probable water retention and to prevent gyno? It’s cheap insurance.[/quote]

Yup. I suppose I’ll need to invest in that too.
Trying to find an affordable medium.

[quote]RSA_Muscle wrote:

Yup. I suppose I’ll need to invest in that too.
Trying to find an affordable medium.[/quote]

The affordable medium, as far as SERMS and AIs, are the chemical research variety.

[quote]retailboy wrote:

World, I know we’ve discussed the short cycle concept repetitively but has your reason for the high dosage been discussed before?

[/quote]

World kinda kicked this concept into overdrive when he started a high dose short cycle a few months ago; he has a thread on it. Three things are true. One, without doubt or question a higher dose will give you better results than a lower dosage. That is 800-1000mg is “better” than 400-500mg. Two, an 8 week cycle is a shorter duration to be suppressed than a 12 week cycle. That’s just pure math. Since anything beyond a physiological dosage i.e. 75-100mg a week will shut down your endogenous test it does not matter if you take 400mg or 1200mg shut down is shut down. Three, there is not the kind of widespread popularity for 800x8 as there is for 500x12. World has been asserting this protocol largely because of his own success. Theoretically it makes sense. In practice it works. I can attest to the fact and many multi-cycle vets in my weight class can as well that there seems to be a sweat spot with gear for the median average. 1-1.5g a week seems to be a great compromise for maximum gains and minimal sides. Once you start crossing the gram and a half a week point you really need to start paying attention to sides. So whether you run 800mg of Test and 400mg of Deca; 750mg of Test and 50mg of dbol ED, 150mg Prop EOD, 50mg Tren Ace ED and 100mg Mast EOD the point remains the same. There is something about that level, again right around a gram to a gram and a quarter which really gives you enough juice to gain and yet not having to worry so much about sides be they estrogen related, acne, sexual or whatever.

Now by no means is this an absolute rule. We all know guys getting gyno with 500mg a week and what not. But the question was has this been discussed before. The answer is yes and here is even more discussion. Again 500x12 is the same total amount of gear as 750x8. So if you were going to gain 15lbs from 6000mg of Test Enanthate why do in 12 what you can do in 8? Now certainly there is something to be said for the saying it goes away as fast as it came. Fair enough. But that just underscores the need for a quality PCT. Its also the reason there is more support for the statis taper protocol amongst higher dosage users.

[quote]5.0 wrote:
RSA_Muscle wrote:

Yup. I suppose I’ll need to invest in that too.
Trying to find an affordable medium.

The affordable medium, as far as SERMS and AIs, are the chemical research variety.[/quote]

I’d go one further and assert the only fiscally intelligible move is to go with the research chemicals. The same product for 1/3 the price, who wouldn’t?

Ok- final one:

C
W 1-10 Test E 250mg 2x/w
W 4-10 Proviron 25mg 2x/d
W 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (0.125mg EOD in last week)

PCT
W 13 Clomid 50mg 2x/d
W 14-16 Clomid 50mg/d

How does this look?

I still say not to intentionally use the a-dex from the start. You should not need it until you start proviron and then you probably won’t need it after you do. 500mg’s a week really is lite. Why kill gains if you don’t have to?

OK. Now, for 20 amps of Test E.

How many needles/syringes am I going to need? It’s oil based isn’t it so I’m going to need very thick needles, right?

After I’ve used a needle/syringe I don’t clean it do I? I just toss it out and each a new one?

Will 2,5cc 22G do?

Standard fare is 3cc 23G or 25G 1.5"

Also by toss out I do hope you don’t just mean in the trash but a proper sharps disposal