T Nation

Results from Nolvadex only?

I’ve been thinking of using tamoxifen to boost my testosterone levels. The reduced estrogen levels would produce less negative feedback inhibition to the HPTA, thus leading to increased testosterone production. I’ve found a few studies that confirm this (see below for links). But only one abstract I found mentions the degree of increased T: about a 150% increase in total and free T (in 9 patients with benign prostatic hyperplasia).

Has anybody here tried using only an anti-estrogen for strength/bulking/dieting?
How effective would this be?
What results can I expect from e.g. a 12 week cycle of 20mg/day of tamoxifen?
Any safety concerns?

Some info: I’m a healthy 18 year old male.

Studies I found:

Thanks for any insight.

Long term tamoxifen use I would not recommend. There have been studies linking clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen citrate to cateracts in women using the drug long term…

That being said, you could probably benefit from using it for a cycle of say 4-6 weeks. But clomid would be better for that use in my opinion.

My opinion is you don’t need the pharmaceutical anti-estrogens unless you’re using pharmaceutical androgens. I would stick to M and Tribex and perhaps Red-Kat if you’re going to remain natural and want to give your endocrine system a boost.

I’m not too worried about cataracts. As you say, it’s only been found in women, mostly elderly. And the increased chance of cateracts appears to be small.
Are there any other reasons besides cateracts why you wouldn’t recommend long term tamoxifen or clomiphene use?

Could you elaborate on your preference of clomid over tamoxifen in this case?

Tamoxifen will probably be cheaper than M/Tribex/Red-Kat and the (long term) benefits and risks are better known, imho. Besides, Biotest doesn’t ship to Europe :frowning:

Thanks for your post!

at 18 years old and being “healthy” as you are. do you really think you need to boost your T production? you sound pretty intelligent and mature beyond your years. hows your diet and training?

I’ve tried using tamoxifen and clomid.
It gave me a slight boost. Clomid was definately better than tamoxifen it was a little cheeper and gave a higher dose. If you can get it cheep I would say give it a try. You might want to shorten up your cycle length a little, so you don’t become desensitized. I could tell it was working when I would get some wood and be a little hornier but then it would fade out. I think the anti estrogen does affect sex drive a little. Tribex is definately better in this regard.

Don’t touch anything until you have pushed the limits. I got to 215 and 8-10% bf natural, benched 500, did 225 for 40 reps, ran a 4.5 40 in college and pulled 600lbs.

I don’t think you should use anything until you have trained with knowledge for atleast 5 or 6 years. If your gains are at a stand still right now, examine what you’re doing and make changes.

Duchane talked about this years ago and it sounds good on paper but never really panned out.

If you play a sport and your looking to get a schooler ship or something then that would be a good excuse to hop on some real shit.

JA

Do a medline search on Anastrozole and letrozole. They are studies with teenage boys using them for periods of up to a year to increase their height. From what I gathered from the brief review of the study there were no bad side effects. I would think both of these would be better than taking either nolvadex or clomid long term. I have taken small doses of letrozole for 2 months and didn’t notice any sides except for oily skin. But this was with only a few drops every other day.

P-DOG wrote:

I don’t need to. But why not use it, if it’s relatively safe and effective?

Thank you!

Pretty decent, I think. I’m currently cutting, so I keep the carbs low (I’m gonna try carbs PWO only). Regardless of cutting/bulking, I eat >1g/lbs of protein, 5-7 meals a day, P+F/P+C, low GI carbs except PWO, no carbs in the evening. Mostly what Berardi and Lowery recommand.
Regarding training, I always choose compound movements, little isolation work. I train each bodypart twice a week. I just finished a 3x8 program, gonna start a new 4x6 program with some new exercises. So i shake things up regularly, and try to keep the rep range lowish to try to focus on strength a bit. I made my own training program, maybe I’ll post it in the other subforum, so people can critique it.

I’m off to the gym now, will post more replies later.

Thanks people!

What dose did you use? Do you consider the boost worthwhile?

Desensitized to what? The testes to LH? Or the pituitary to GnRH? I doubt the former would be a problem. The latter is only associated with clomid, not nolvadex.

If I’m gonna take an anti-E, I’ll try to get my T measured, see what it really does.

Thanks for your post.

Those are some impressive results naturally!
If one has the knowledge to use steroid/etc. in a safe manner, than why wait until one has peaked naturally? If one’s diet and training suck, than using steroids would be a waste of money. But assuming diet and training are decent, why not use steroids before naturally peaked or training >5 years?

The results would ofcourse be mild, but maybe worthwhile?

Just wanna look good naked :-).

Thanks for your post!

I’ve been on 50 mg of clomid EOD for tha last 6 months. My urologist (fertility specialist) put me on it for suppressed T levels do to ++ endurance training…plus I’m 43 years old. My T levels went from about sub 300 to 800 in 30 days. My estrodial levels went from 58 to 28 (normal). My MD is very happy and said stay on clomid for a year and then come back and see me then. He went onto say that unless you see a fertility MD would you know to use clomid for certain types of hypogonadism. I buy it! Read the book Testosterone Syndrome … testosterone is not always the only and/or best way to treat low T levels.

My 2 cents…

Thanks for the review on that. Very interesting!

Is there a reason why your doc used Clomid and not Nolvadex?

You might want to get Cy to weigh in on this. He recommended nolva as a stand-alone for a short-time boost in a recent article. I’d be interested in what he thinks about clomid for the same purpose and the timeframe for each.

[quote]JackAss wrote:
Don’t touch anything until you have pushed the limits. I got to 215 and 8-10% bf natural, benched 500, did 225 for 40 reps, ran a 4.5 40 in college and pulled 600lbs.

I don’t think you should use anything until you have trained with knowledge for atleast 5 or 6 years. If your gains are at a stand still right now, examine what you’re doing and make changes.

Duchane talked about this years ago and it sounds good on paper but never really panned out.

If you play a sport and your looking to get a schooler ship or something then that would be a good excuse to hop on some real shit.

JA[/quote]
Exactly

In the short term yes nolva and clomid use will boost Test production in a eugonadic male, with a healthy hpta.

Long term however, the body is always trying to normalize, so inevitable the T-boost is self-limiting, due to the fact that the presense of Androgens binding to the AR also causes suppression - though the exact mechanism is not well understood.

Also keep in mind that serms are ‘weak’ estrogens. They can also decrease igf-1. So I am not sure what the extent of gains would be.

However with that been said, If I had known this fact, When I was still natural, and eating trib like candy, I probably would have given it a shot. But most likely not at 18. At 18 you are at your peak of testosterone production. All you need is lots of food, abstain from too many late nights and alcohol, consistency of diet and training, and you will grow. Wait untill you are 23, and your gains are slowing before you try it.

At 18 I don’t believe that at that age, you have learned to train properly yet, or eat properly. Master the art of listening to your body, before the noise of performance enhancers drown it out!