T Nation

Restarting Your HPTA

not agreeing or disagreeing just yet…although, i would find this more credible if you were claiming to use an AI during cycle…not a selective anti-e like nolva. i can follow most of your reasoning though…just not sold on the concept as i doubt it would work for the majority of users, even with fast acting AAS combined with short(6 weeks or less)cycles.

THIS GUY IS REALLY OFF BASE. OF COURSE HE MEANS WELL, BUT HE LACKS BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE BODY WORKS.

WHEN I HAVE TIME LATER I WILL ELABORATE.

but off the top of my head quick… it is HTPA - not the opposite and it stands for hypothalmus and pituatary axis which are two completely different bodies.

Nolvadex is NOT an LH analog. And it has NO direct effect on the testes.

Nolvadex does not keep the axis ‘primed’ for action while on a cycle, as there are other undefined mechanisms within the body that clearly control testosterone production or the lack of it. This is best explained by examining why the use of an estrogen antagonist, or an aromatase inhibitor cannot cause the pituitary gland to stimulate production of supraphysiological levels of testosterone from the testes.

Now since the gland clearly isn’t ‘primed’ to produce testosterone during a cycle, and knowing full well that all tissues, are subject to atrophy when not used, it is quite easy to see how the length of a cycle would have an effect on HTPA functionality.

I could continue, as I see many other inacurracies and misconceptions in his statements, but I have no more time right now…

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
THIS GUY IS REALLY OFF BASE. OF COURSE HE MEANS WELL, BUT HE LACKS BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE BODY WORKS.

WHEN I HAVE TIME LATER I WILL ELABORATE.

but off the top of my head quick… it is HTPA - not the opposite and it stands for hypothalmus and pituatary axis which are two completely different bodies.

Nolvadex is NOT an LH analog. And it has NO direct effect on the testes.

Nolvadex does not keep the axis ‘primed’ for action while on a cycle, as there are other undefined mechanisms within the body that clearly control testosterone production or the lack of it. This is best explained by examining why the use of an estrogen antagonist, or an aromatase inhibitor cannot cause the pituitary gland to stimulate production of supraphysiological levels of testosterone from the testes.

Now since the gland clearly isn’t ‘primed’ to produce testosterone during a cycle, and knowing full well that all tissues, are subject to atrophy when not used, it is quite easy to see how the length of a cycle would have an effect on HTPA functionality.

I could continue, as I see many other inacurracies and misconceptions in his statements, but I have no more time right now…[/quote]

It’s HPTA and it stands for hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis

Wow!! holy shit, i gotta’ agree with bushyboy, this isn’t making alot of sense, brother. maybe it works for you gregus, but my experience has shown otherwise. it bother’s me too, because the biggest mistakes i see alot of brothers make is bad cycle mixes and improper pct. i see alot guys coming into the game with crazy stacks and nothing on the tail end. so dudes who were eating 45 lb plates two months ago are watching day’s of our lives today with a bowl full of bon bons. amen, brother

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I take my questions back. :slight_smile:

A text by William Llewellyn about Nolva and Clomid set me straight.
Its called “Clomid, Nolvadex and testosterone stimulation”.

I still prefer using proviron to keep moderatly low estrogen levels during cycle and switching to nolva for PCT for the HPTA effects of the drug.

having now taken the time to actually read this…i gotta agree with bushy and pris…

this thinking goes against everything i have read on the subject…and all the first hand experiences of bros i have been learning from here and elsewhere, including myself. plus your take on the subject of serms and ai’s and the htpa…basically the whole shebang, is full of inaccuracies and conflicting info.

cannot agree with the idea, and although i can see how you came to those conclusions…its still misguided. i’m sure the pris will elaborate with some more technical facts.

[quote]Jorlen wrote:
I take my questions back. :slight_smile:

A text by William Llewellyn about Nolva and Clomid set me straight.
Its called “Clomid, Nolvadex and testosterone stimulation”.

I still prefer using proviron to keep moderatly low estrogen levels during cycle and switching to nolva for PCT for the HPTA effects of the drug.[/quote]

Proviron to keep moderately low estrogen levels? I never used it but was under the impression that it’s a weak androgen used to prop up a lacking sex drive in some AS users.

Guys let me ask you simple question. What causes your hpta to restart post cycle. Ask yourself this basic question and you’ll see that the regimen i use is very effective.

Bill Llewellyn uses the same approach i outline. He likes to use HCG also along with the Nolva, but HCG does not need to be used if your testes don’t have too much atrophy.

Let’s remeber that the only reason HCG is used is to restore testicular mass, it does not really have anything to do with actuall HPTA recovery. In simple terms restoring their mass increses their sensitivity to other ancinillaries like Clomid and Nolva, which BTW are really the same thing, with Nolva being the more effective of the two.

Proviron reduces estrogen since it cannot be converted into estrogen but still binds to the aromatase enzyme blocking it so that less testosterone will be converted. It is not supereffective like arimidex. Which means it wont annihilate the estrogen just reduce conversion greatly.
On top of that it does what you say aswell.
With the right dosage you stay within normal physiological ranges of estrogen and keep the benefit of estrogen without bloat and fat-gain.

New question though, is the actual physical size a good predictor for how well your testicles will respond to LH or HCG at the start of PCT?

Also Gregus, you say two weeks recovery, it sounds like you have tried this and know it for a fact.
How can you be sure you are completly recoved after two weeks?
Did you have your blood works done?

[quote]Jorlen wrote:
Proviron reduces estrogen since it cannot be converted into estrogen but still binds to the aromatase enzyme blocking it so that less testosterone will be converted. It is not supereffective like arimidex. Which means it wont annihilate the estrogen just reduce conversion greatly.
On top of that it does what you say aswell.
With the right dosage you stay within normal physiological ranges of estrogen and keep the benefit of estrogen without bloat and fat-gain.

New question though, is the actual physical size a good predictor for how well your testicles will respond to LH or HCG at the start of PCT?

Also Gregus, you say two weeks recovery, it sounds like you have tried this and know it for a fact.
How can you be sure you are completly recoved after two weeks?
Did you have your blood works done?[/quote]

2 week recovery is 80% for me but i consider this pretty much full recovery sice as far as all functioing i’m back 100%. In the following 2-3 weeks is when my body get’s the other 20% going and that’s going by my bloodwork. Using this method we have achieved some good bloodwork results with me and my trainees. One specific example of how effective 20mg of nolva throughout the cycle can be with a clean diet resulted in a cholesterol reading of 140 post cycle and most of the HPTA recovey taking place in the first 10 days. And this was with a trainee that had a history of high cholesterol, high blood pressure etc… His Blood pressure post cycle was a 120/78 which was down from 140/95. Test recovered from a pre cycle of 700 ng/ml to a 400 ng/ml in the first 10 days on 10mg of Nolvadex daily and that’s it.

As for the testicle size it’s a very individual thing. It depends on you, if feel like your testicles remained more or less the same you should be ok, if you see significant shrincage you WILL have a much harder and longer recovery, this is where the HCG along with Nolva will have to be administered, in where the HCG once again will only serve to restore testicular mass, thus allowing your choice of Clomid or Nolvadex to do it’s bidding. I prefer Nolvadex over Clomid 1000%. Just 10mg of Nolvadex is as effective at raising test levels as about 150mg of Clomid, plus you get the reduced Cholesterol, less side effects, no floaters in your vision and you don’t become an emotional roller coaster.

Everything tells me you need to have decent sized balls when you are due for PCT to experience the results you have experienced.
Thats why I asked about the balls. I bet everyone has “time under supression” that allows for a two week 80% recovery. And its a lot of fiddling with the balls to be able to learn where that line is drawn.
If someone is more easily supressed you would not experience a recovery that quick after 6 weeks.

[quote]Jorlen wrote:
Everything tells me you need to have decent sized balls when you are due for PCT to experience the results you have experienced.
Thats why I asked about the balls. I bet everyone has “time under supression” that allows for a two week 80% recovery. And its a lot of fiddling with the balls to be able to learn where that line is drawn.
If someone is more easily supressed you would not experience a recovery that quick after 6 weeks.[/quote]

It’s a matter of figuring out how much Nolvadex you need to use throughout the cycle. Start with a fixed dosage and adjust from there to maintain their mass. There’s a little trial and error but once you have that info you’ll recover so much faster.

If your testicles are shrinking too much during your cycles it’s time to play with my methods or there’s always keeping track of which compounds shut you down the hardest. For me it’s Deca and Winny. They’re a 6 month recovery for me no matter what.

Also the time you’re supressed should not really matter. Once estrogen is controlled and the exchogenous androgens are cleared out of the system, you hpta will be shocked back into action very quickly.

Well now that I have had the time to more fully read this, I have to say that gregus and I have differing opinions on this subject.

First off as I said before, Nolvadex is an estrogen antagonist, it does not mimic LH and while on cycle, doesn’t have the effect on the teste’s that gregus claims it has. There are steroids that do not aromatise to estrogen yet cause even more suppression than steroids that do. Nandrolone and trenbolone are two of course that come to mind, and the only role nolva can play is via the role of an estrogen antagonist.

The most obvious point I will make is that while you are on cycle, it doesn’t matter how much nolva or clomid you take, you are not going to avoid suppresion.
Why? Because there are other mechanisms at play that aren’t as fully understood. A good example of this is the fact that if a normal healthy male took clomid or nolvadex, even though the receptors in his hypothalmus would be blocked, he would not produce supraphysiological amounts of testosterone. Studies on this have been done, and actually testosterone does elevate slightly for a while, but then the dip down again. The body always has a way of equalizing itself out - reaching homeostasis. So while taking nolva is good, and should be beneficial, it is not as beneficial as gregus claims. Actually the action of tribulus has a direct effect on the testes, and should be considered for this part instead of nolvadex.

The second item I disagree with is his choice of using nolvadex over an aromatase inhibitor. You can titrate the aromatase inhibitor so that estrogen is below supraphysiological levels and remains at precycle levels, but not lower. This will reduce the risk of high lipid levels. Excess estrogen in the body isn’t desirable at the end of a cycle or at any time for that matter, as it will further cause suppression, and tends to hang around longer than free testosterone. Estrogen can bind to proteins that will prolong it’s stay in the human body, it can be stored in fat cells, and has been linked with cancer, including prostate CA, hypogonadism, and testicular cell death. Allowing this steroid free reign in your body, even though it isn’t binding to many receptors at the time, isn’t a very good plan in the long run. That is why I take everything MR. Llewlwyn or whatever his name is, with a lot of salt. PCT isn’t exactly at the forefront of research and there arn’t a lot of ‘peers’ reviewing his work.

Basically the best protection against testicular atrophy, is keeping the cycle’s short, and the compounds used preferably more anabolic and less androgenic.

Another statement I disagree with is his statement that he doesn’t loose any size and strength when he goes off cycle. First off, two weeks is not long enough to tell if anything is lost. Try six weeks to 4 months. This of course applies if you are above your genetic potential. If not then yes there is a good chance for you to keep most of the gains.

Another idea I don’t agree with is that testicular atrophy causes desensitization to the leydig cells. On the contrary, the absence of LH binding with the leydig receptors shouldn’t do this whatsoever. Testicular atrophy is caused simply by not frequently being needed. Every tissue is need dependant in the body. The less it is used, the less it is needed, and the body will get rid or it, via tissue remodelling. This is the body’s way of conserving energy.
You don’t believe me, lie in bed for a week and see how much weight you lose!
Sure testicular atrophy isn’t good, and it will complicate post cycle issues, but the use of hcg is going to make things worse in the long run as it will desensitize the leydig receptors to the small amounts of LH secreted by the pituitary. Now instead of one level of suppression in the axis you now have two levels.
HCG is great for ensuring that your cattle reproduces, but for use in pct it is only a Band-Aid solution ? much like using proviron for pct as well.

Any solutions to hcg? Yes, research the testosterone bridge.

Last little tidbit of info gregus got wrong was when he stated that deca and winny leave him suppressed for long periods of time. I only bring this up because if he was truly an ?experienced user? he would be able to differentiate between the usage of ?deca? and ?winny?. Winstrol is one of the easiest if not the easiest steroid to recover from. It is not only an antiprogesterone compound, but it is also thought to block estrogen at the ER to a certain extent as well.

So since I was such a critic, I will lay out a few rules to follow for what I feel is the best pct?

  1. Keep the cycle short, and use short acting compounds nearing the end of the cycle. 6 weeks should be your longest cycle. If you do it properly, You should have achieved more than most of your gains your going to if you continued to 8. 8 weeks is really pushing your luck especially if you are using longer length esters…
  2. If using an enathate ester, use a frontload to achieve therapeutic blood levels of the drug quicker, so gains can be made sooner and the cycle can be ended sooner.
  3. Avoid anything that has ?decanoate? in it as this will extend your cycle for six weeks at least following your last injection. This is just fine if your cycles are usually 8 months long, of course, but then you wouldn?t worry about a successful pct would you?
  4. The pct can only begin once the steroids have fallen into physiological amounts in your blood. This may take as long as 6 to 8 weeks, depending on your dosages you were running, if you were using the enathate or decanoate esters. I personally would run something short-acting in the meantime while I waited for these drugs to clear.
  5. All you need is nolvadex. If the steroids have truly cleared your body, your body will respond to the nolva. Ideally an aromatase inhibitor should have been used at conservative dosages while on cycle if aromatizing gear had been used, This would have been used right up to the day that pct began.
  6. Absolutely no hcg, unless you are looking to be dependant on it as well. You can try tribulus during cycle instead, as it can give a small boost to the testes.
  7. If you want to be truly ?recovered? between cycles, take at least twice as long off as you do on. That means you start counting days after the last steroid has cleared your body, not after your last injection. This time on equals time off is B.S. You mine as well stay on permamently!

P22, thanks for taking the time to set the record straight…I have been wanting to myself, but have been swamped w/ school lately…It is good to have you here.

MK

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Not to be the next man to jump on P22’s dick but, I have to agree with everyone esle. Good explaination. I’m going to have to reiterate one of the very obvious points that he makes though. That being that I pretty damn sure most of us who have done a few cycles before all know, to really tell how “recovered” you truly are you should give yourself some adequate time (WAY MORE THEN 2-3 WEEKS), to be able to tell. Bloodwork is one thing, but what’s written on a peice of paper doesnt’ always carry over to real life applications.