T Nation

Restarting Your HPTA


#1

Hey guys i want to do a piece to help out those that are a little confused about ending your cycles. Many bro's end cycle with a PCT regimen. They all differ slightly in application but generally serve the purpose of restarting the precious test production asap post cycle.

personally i stopped using PCT regimens and I'll explain why.

When on cycle you have 2 things going against you when it comes time to recover. One is Estrogen and it's derivatives the other are the excess or exchogenous androgens in circulation.

They work against you in that they message your pituitary to halt your hpta. The only thing you can do when on a cycle is minnimise the damage.

Personally i like Nolvadex over just about any anti estrogen, i won't get into detail why but i prefer it over the aromatose inhibitors. Nolvadex does a good job of protecting cardiac function, setting up a more favorable cholesterol profile, it also mimmics LH so there's small ammounts of natural test production still going on during the cycle. In my experience Nolvadex at as low as 10mg used during a cycle kept my testicles 90% of their pre cycle size. This was very important to me because testiculat size is a good indicator of how fast my HPTA recovers. With severe testicular shrincage you will be very desensitised to your natural LH post cycle and you will be forced to use HCG to restore testicular mass and hence increase the sensitivity of the lyedig cell, just so that it can respond to your PCT regimen.

So that was part one of my strategy. Keep your testicles functioning and full thoughtout the cycle with Nolvadex.

In the post cycle part, i use nothing. That's right no PCT reminen. Any PCT regimen post cycle actually keeps your HPTA from recovering. Clomid, Nolvadex, HCG etc all are considered symptomatic treatments. Your HPTA is not actually recovering it's like a false high. As soon as you take away the PCT drugs your hpta crashes anyway, at best you'll soften the blow.

My strategy has been to keep a cycle short, say 6-8 weeks.

Use Nolvadex to keep testicular function closer to pre cycle levels and preserve testicualr mass. 10-20 mg daily should be enough.

End the cycle with very short acting esters and absolutely no longer acting esters in your system. This is critical. You MUST be clear of all long or medium lenght esters. So check your half lives carefully. Once this is cartain i quit all cycles cold turkey.

That's right cold turkey. What happens is that with maintained testicular mass and all Hormones cleared out in 1-2 days, there's a sudden drop in androgens in my system. This causes a rapid kickastart of my HPTA to fill the vacum.

I'm ususally fully recovered in 2 weeks with no decrease in strenght or size. I've used this approach on several cycles and it always recovered me quicker then ANY PCT in the past. Give it a shot and you may be throwing out the PCT regimen sooner then later.


#2

man are you serious!sounds a little off to me.


#3

Which part?


#4

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#5

Just because that worked for you doesn't necessarily mean it'll work for anyone else. Like BB said, without the scientific studies to back this you'd be a fool to go this route.


#6

I'm a short cycle, nolvadex guy too and it's worked for me.
The thing is I take low doses and I also use short esters.

Not sure if this would work with the guys who use over 1g/week.

My high weeks are 600mgs


#7

I hold this for credible, the only parts of the steroid community it flies in the face of is perhaps the uneducated parts.
Most people might not use this type of cycle and lack of PCT. But if you look at what people use and how they claim to respond to that usage all the parts are there to be verified.

Short cycles = less suppression, shorten recovery

Fast esters = staying shorter time in the unwanted zone where androgen levels are falling and you dont grow but you are still suppressing your bodys own testosterone. Shortens recovery time.

Nolva usage = nolva is not know to act like LH or HCG but it seems to sensitize the body to its own LH so that atrophy of the testicles is delayed. With short cycles this would make a difference.

Everyone responds differently and I see no reason Gregus should be wrong.

But if all this adds together to make a full recovery in 2 weeks from a 6-8 week cycle is still a bold claim.


#8

What scientific evidence do i need to present to you? How nolvadex works? How clomid works? Ester clearing times? What's the difference between an anti estrogen and an aromatose enzyme inhibitor? I assume the basics are covered.


#9

It will work for anyone. Tapering down your cycles is an outdated notion just like tapering up. It's been abandoned for years by those in the know.


#10

The reason that most pct programs fail is due to one of two things:
A, the user is beginning pct while a significant amount of androgen metabolites are still present, thus making endogenous testosterone recovery a frugile venture.
B, the pct drugs were not administered long enough. Studies have shown that hypogonadal men didn't fully recover after 4wks of clomid therapy...8 wks was necessary to restore the hpta.

Obviously you know your body better than we do gregus, and if this protocol is working for you then more power to you, but I have my doubts that the majority of users would be able to do so.

MK


#11

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#12

Guys it's important to note that i said Nolvadex is to be used throughout that cycle to minnimise testicular atrophy. Once all the androgens are clear out of your system with a certain suddenness your HPTA automatically kick starts for a lack of a better term.

All that pct drugs do is delay your recovery. A shorter cycle comprised of short acting compounds is the way to go if speedy recovery is important.


#13

No no i wrote to use Nolva thoughout that cycle to minnimise atrophy of the lyedig cell. It keeps your HPTA primed for recovery, so when the androgen level goes from supraphysiological to zero in a matter of 24 hours your hpta will have only one way to respond to such a shock and that would be an immediate upregulation of the Testicular axis.

It's not as simple as a saying i did a cycle with no pct and i'm fine. I think newbies should have all the info vets have come across and we should not dumbify anything for them. Proper cycle recovery should already be built into the cycle design in the first place. This means the correct ester choices, duration and ancillary meds.

[/quote]But if all this adds together to make a full recovery in 2 weeks from a 6-8 week cycle is still a bold claim.

I agree, and I for one am sceptical...2 weeks recovery from a 3 week cycle, yes. But from a 6-8 weeker? I have my doubts - though Gregus does not tell us the knid of dose he uses and from past posts, I seem to remember that he favours very low dosing, which might have a part to play in his level of shutdown/speed of recovery...

bushboy[/quote]

See it does not matter if your cycle was 3 weeks or 6 weeks. Once HPTA supression goes into effect it's all the same. This is why fango wango cycles are a thing of the past. Once you're supressed the dosage becomes irrelevant, so it's a none issue. I recover from about 600mg total intake.

The only reason i advocated low doses is to prevent alot of newbies from looking at AS like a magic potion. I always advocated using less AS and relaying more on diet, rest, proper training.


#14

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#15

In time with more understanding you will see that it really does not matter.
You can be fully shut down in less then 24 hours with endogenous test at zero, depending on AS choices. Something like primobolan will be more firgiving at say 100mg weekly then AD50 @ 100mg daily. But other than fringe examplys like this one it really does not matter.

Fango wango cycles died for this very reason.


#16

Gregus,

what does fango wango stand for?


#17

Bushboy, all I was saying is that I believed it to be possible for someone not everyone. And for all I know it could be Gregus.

Gregus please go into detail about why you dont like aromatase inhibitors.

I havent seen it anywhere so I am asking, hold on.
Nolvadex competes with estrogen for its receptors. But it does not bind at the same rate as estrogen on these different kinds of receptors. Its semiselective.
I know high levels of estrogen inhibits LH but what happens when tamoxifen is in the blood messing with the regulatory receptors of the hypothalamus?

Aromatase inhibitors would reduce the amount of estrogen and it should force the hypothalamus to react quicker and stronger when both estrogen and testosterone both suddenly drop. And signal the pituitary gland to produce LH at an even higher rate.


#18

Aromatose inhibitors are a newer class of cancer fighting drugs used to starve out estrogen dependent tumors. I feel they too good of a job in literally eliminating estrogen from your body. This causes joint pain, increases you cardiac risk significantly, messes with your cholesterol profile, affects liver function, sex drive etc...

Nolvadex is very interesting from the standpoint that it's actuall healthy for you, as more and more studies come out. It's cardiac protection factors are enought for me to use it. It lower cholesterol and shift's it into a positive ratio of hdl/ldl. In some tissues Nolvadex acts like an estrogen in others it just blocks the receptor.

In truth estrogen is very important to proper functioning of the male body and eliminating it with aromatose inhibitors is overkill and unhealthy. We do enough damage with AS and should use ancilaries to help kepp us healthier, IMO..


#19

It's a term given to short 2-3 week duration cycles, followed by equal time off as a PCT. Then you repeat.


#20

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