Don’t let the way you count reps, or the name of the exercise distract you from the purpose of the exercise.
Dumbbell rows work your “back.”
If you believe 45 reps in the dumbbell row will be more productive for your back than 25 reps, JUST DO 45 TOTAL REPS.
Why go to failure, and stop at 25-30 total reps when you could do 3 sets of 15 to near failure, and accumulate more total reps? Just so you can refer to the exercise by a particular name?
The idea that one set to failure is more effective than multiple sets, not all the way to failure because it’s more “Intense” is kind of controversial. Lots of people think it’s a silly idea.
Instead of one high rep, or rest pause set of rows with 26kg, another approach could be 4 sets of 8 with 35kg.
The reason I say this is because the two moves are different as I believe you yourself stated earlier. Both are great moves, but if you are only doing 50 for 20, you should stick to the controlled manner of dumbbell rows before you go into the ballistic ways of Kroc rows. Kroc rows are a great back and deadlift builder, yes, but require a certain level of strength in your body that some are not at. That is why I said the previous comment about the heaviest dumbbells in your gym. If you begin moving the dumbbell the way Kroc does without the base of strength, you will snap your shit up and it will not be as beneficial as doing a controlled and squeezed dumbbell row. This forum is not a dick measuring contest. Too many people of lower strength level get upset when people tell them in a harsh way that what they are doing is not optimal and they get upset. People here are only trying to help you, but I did not grow up coddled and told what I was doing was great if it wasn’t.
As far as this goes, @FlatsFarmer said it best. Try them out and see man. If they work for you, great, if not, drop them. I would just stick to tried and true programs first personally and do them as written until you get to a certain level.
To me, rest pause is more about getting a few more reps with a weight that’s really heavy. It’s not about getting a million more reps with a weight you can already do a million more reps with.
I haven’t exactly done rest pause with them but I have used Paul Carter’s 50% set idea with them before. I can’t say whether it helped in size or strength but if anything it was just fun trying to beat the reps for both sets each week. Like others have stated though I was using the heaviest dumbbell in the gym and I don’t see much merit in doing “kroc rows” if that isn’t the case
Wait, this part is not clear. I’ve read a few articles by Kroc himself where he explaines the rows and he doesn’t seem to advocate for this difference, same in his videos. He says some degree of body english is acceptable and unavoidable, especially in the last few reps, but should be very mild.
To make sure we’re talking about the same mechanics:
-dumbbell row: rigid body (legs, abs, neutral spine), one hip higher than the other, starts with hanging dumbbell, drive up with the elbow;
-Kroc row: same as above, with the shoulder dropping more than conventional rows after each rep, done in a single big set;
that’s how I’ve always done rows, at least. With sufficient weight, I think that swinging the dumbbell and rotating the torso will set you up for an injury regardless of your strength level.
Btw, I can try doing multiple sets of 8-10 with heavier weights, wonder if there is any particular technique that could help in keeping the total time for all the sets down?
Also, about the multiple sets vs single set: I thought that the thing about the single bigger set was an increased density, which should lead to increased work capacity
Kroc Rows 101 this is an article he wrote on here some years back. He goes over everything Kroc row related. I personally started doing dumbbell rows heavy for different set and rep schemes and even went to do a 10x3 block for a bit making them my main move when I was younger. Don’t sweat it too much, just get good quality work in really. I am a firm believer that cheating builds great strength, but only after base strength is developed. While you may get benefit from doing high rep dumbbell rows, I think you would benefit best from heavier sets followed by lighter sets really squeezing your upper/mid back and lats at your strength level. But that is just one fucker’s opinion.
if the DBs are under 100 lbs and the reps are under 20, they’re not Kroc rows - unless you’re rowing over 200 lbs or so
straps or no straps doesn’t matter, depends on your goals. I use no straps right now because I use them for grip development as well
if you can even contemplate another rep or two at the same weight you didn’t do Kroc rows. It should take a good two minutes for you to start breathing normally again let alone be able to hold something.
any time I do Kroc rows, I notice my other lifts going well. If I stop them, this often changes for one or two lifts
if you do want added volume, do a couple of back off sets with your last warmup weight.
Thanks for the inputs, I think I should be able to use the heaviest dumbbells in the gym for sets of 8-10. The heavier sets + lighter sets sounds like the most sensible approach.
On another note, ever tried doing rows on leg day? I’ve seen a lot of people doing pullups after squats and putting rows after squats would be very practical in my current schedule programming.
I honestly don’t remember, it was an article on a website similar to this one.
The writer said that if your grip fails, you’re forced to end the set, while with straps you can add more reps, which strains the bicep.
It made some sense but I really didn’t pay attention to it as I don’t have straps anyway
Thanks for the input, about your third point (the one quoted), how do you program Kroc Rows in your routine, since they’re so intensive? First exercise of the day?
I do kroc rows for one set of at least 30+ reps and when I can do 50 reps with the weight I go to the next dumbbell. I also Barbell rows of some variation like Pendlay, Yates or normal for more lat work on a separate day. They both are good for me personally and complement each other and my other lifts which I do. No need to limit yourself to one type of row.
I’m doing the basic 5/3/1, 4 days a week. I’ve done full body 3daw early when I began lifting but I don’t really recover well. This is a summary of the routine I’d want to follow:
Mon - OHP, rear raises, triceps
Tue - Deads, pullups, abs, biceps
Wed - rest
Thu - Bench, dips, face pulls, biceps
Fri - rest
Sat - Squats, rows, pullups, abs
Sun - rest
Loaded carries twice a week (mon and thu/sat), walking twice a week (rest days)
Very summed up. Putting rows on squat day would keep the length of all workouts more balanced.
In general, avoid following/repeating the advice from sources that are so insignificant that you are unable to recall them. Stick with sources that are worth listening to. Whoever gave you that advice on straps was a quack. Bicep ruptures happen without straps constantly. Your grip does nothing to govern yourself. A rupture occurs with a suppinated hand and a flex in the arm with a load the tendon cannot bear. You see this with tire flips and deadlifts constantly. Not using straps on rows because you think it will save you from bicep ruptures is ridiculous, and in general the people preoccupied with Bicep ruptures tend to not be lifting enough to ever be in a position where it will matter.
Its been awhile since I read it … I have a copy on storage somewhere. He didn’t specifically mentions ruptures from what I remember … I will say anymore as for Late intermediate to advance guys I think its ignorant not to use straps when the grip becomes a limiting factor for upper back work.
