T Nation

Research Study


#1

Research project

We have 24 steroid users ( 5 years average use, 20.5 weeks per year), most use no or little PCT - with the exception of some HCG at the end of the cycle. The cycles they will follow are quite different in content and time (we cannot dictate this - ethics will allow us to monitor and follow individuals only)

It is our intention to look at differing PCT protocols and the effects.

A question that I am sure forum contributors will be able to help us with - has anyone on this forum ever actually suffered desensitization of leydig cells from the use of HCG? Or does anybody know first hand of any individuals this has actually occurred to?

We are not interested in current literature - we have reviewed this extensively - we are interested only in the experiences of well versed PED users.

Thanks in advance for help offered. This could offer some good insights into the best methods of recovery.

We will monitor at the start, every 2-weeks of cycle, cycle end and every week into PCT for 8 weeks.

Free testosterone
E2
DHT
Blood lipids
Blood pressure
Weight
% body fat

Results will be shared with the forum


#2

interesting idea…which PCT protocols specifically will you be comparing? As i am sure you are aware accuracy in reporting will be your biggest challenge, people have a hard time with accurate data unless they are scientifically minded. aka most people are retarded


#3

Never had any symptoms that would suggest it - but i haven’t used it at dosages high enough for long enough to expect it either though.

When i do use HCG i use 500iu EOD. I have used it is excess of 1500iu E5D however but as i said this was only a handful of times and as such i cannot be sure as to an effect as discrete as that.

However when i did use at those dosages, it did increase T significantly and afterwards there was a noticeable drop - now whether this was a desensitisation of the leydigs or simply the lowering of HCG/T is AFAIK impossible for anyone to be able to differentiate without very specific testing that is not available to a regular steroid user.

I am surprised at the level of user you have. By that i mean that the users have been using so long and for around 50% of the year each year too.

On a side note - i was speaking to a lad who works at the gym the other day and he pointed out all the steroid users in the gym at that time. Only one had any decent level of muscularity and he is a total ego lifter who will not stand the test of time.

The point is, IME most steroid users are not decently developed men but small and skinny who have crap results and do not have the discipline to either train and eat effectively let alone get the most from these drugs.

Anyway… another tangent successfully covered by me… :wink:

Can i ask what your study has that all the other studies on SERM/AI/HCG on HPTA function in hypo-gonadal men do not? ie. what are you hoping to answer or discover that has not already been asserted? - Genuinely… :slight_smile:

Also… to be really useful you do really need the details of the cycle… as drug type, ester and dosage are all important variables in recovery and if not specified will have little real-world relevance…


#4
  1. 250 iu HCG (EOD) from week 2. Tamoxifen @ 20mg/day from end of cycle ( when last steroid estimated to clear system) for 45 days and clomiphene citrate 50mg/day for 30 days from same point

  2. As above but no HCG during or at end of cycle

  3. As 1 but no HCG during cycle but 2500iu every other day at cycle end for 16 days (Scally/Verge protocol) - hence the reason I am enquiring about experiences of Leydig problems associated with HCG.


#5

[quote]J-J wrote:
Never had any symptoms that would suggest it - but i haven’t used it at dosages high enough for long enough to expect it either though.

When i do use HCG i use 500iu EOD. I have used it is excess of 1500iu E5D however but as i said this was only a handful of times and as such i cannot be sure as to an effect as discrete as that.

However when i did use at those dosages, it did increase T significantly and afterwards there was a noticeable drop - now whether this was a desensitisation of the leydigs or simply the lowering of HCG/T is AFAIK impossible for anyone to be able to differentiate without very specific testing that is not available to a regular steroid user.

I am surprised at the level of user you have. By that i mean that the users have been using so long and for around 50% of the year each year too.

On a side note - i was speaking to a lad who works at the gym the other day and he pointed out all the steroid users in the gym at that time. Only one had any decent level of muscularity and he is a total ego lifter who will not stand the test of time.

The point is, IME most steroid users are not decently developed men but small and skinny who have crap results and do not have the discipline to either train and eat effectively let alone get the most from these drugs.

Anyway… another tangent successfully covered by me… :wink:

Can i ask what your study has that all the other studies on SERM/AI/HCG on HPTA function in hypo-gonadal men do not? ie. what are you hoping to answer or discover that has not already been asserted? - Genuinely… :slight_smile:

Also… to be really useful you do really need the details of the cycle… as drug type, ester and dosage are all important variables in recovery and if not specified will have little real-world relevance…[/quote]

Unfortunately we cannot dictate cycle - it is unethical to a put individuals on a regime that could damage their health (please not my words)!

We will however record and publish the cycles.

It was relatively easy to find this number of users (4 localish gyms). All I would say, without exception, you would say has high levels of muscularity. We could have had more users but there were 2 problems;

a) Making sure each had a least 12-weeks since last cycle
b) The costs associated with testing a sample of each PED to ensure accurate dosage and chemical ID

What do we have/going to do that others have not? This is the only study I have seen that examines PCT in the real world by comparing more than one methodolgy


#6

[quote]Cymru wrote:

  1. 250 iu HCG (EOD) from week 2. Tamoxifen @ 20mg/day from end of cycle ( when last steroid estimated to clear system) for 45 days and clomiphene citrate 50mg/day for 30 days from same point

  2. As above but no HCG during or at end of cycle

  3. As 1 but no HCG during cycle but 2500iu every other day at cycle end for 16 days (Scally/Verge protocol) - hence the reason I am enquiring about experiences of Leydig problems associated with HCG.[/quote]

will you be re-creating the entire scally protocol? or just utilizing his hcg patterns? i for one believe the whole desensitization thing to be way overblown. The scally protocol is the ONLY PCT program i know of that has any real evidence behind it. Interesting stuff brother look forward to it


#7

[quote]morepain wrote:
Cymru wrote:

  1. 250 iu HCG (EOD) from week 2. Tamoxifen @ 20mg/day from end of cycle ( when last steroid estimated to clear system) for 45 days and clomiphene citrate 50mg/day for 30 days from same point

  2. As above but no HCG during or at end of cycle

  3. As 1 but no HCG during cycle but 2500iu every other day at cycle end for 16 days (Scally/Verge protocol) - hence the reason I am enquiring about experiences of Leydig problems associated with HCG.

will you be re-creating the entire scally protocol? or just utilizing his hcg patterns? i for one believe the whole desensitization thing to be way overblown. The scally protocol is the ONLY PCT program i know of that has any real evidence behind it. Interesting stuff brother look forward to it

[/quote]
yes we will nolva and clomid as pct number 1 (above) as well as Scally’s HCG protocol


#8

I am going to follow this thread with great interest. Specifically relating to HCG usage.
My last PCT consisted of…

Nolva 40/40/20/20, HCG 250 IU EOD Throughout cycle, and for first week of PCT, and AI tapering down through PCT to permanent low dose usage off cycle (Bill Roberts’ letro protocol). A very common, and standard PCT for many users.

I have not found anything more radical to be more effective as of yet. And to the very best of my knowledge experienced no problems with subsequent HCG usage in the PCT or on cycle…But again my dose is certainly conservative.

I would love to see the actual blood work for different PCT’s across a wide range of cycles and protocols.


#9

[quote]Westclock wrote:
I am going to follow this thread with great interest. Specifically relating to HCG usage.
My last PCT consisted of…

Nolva 40/40/20/20, HCG 250 IU EOD Throughout cycle, and for first week of PCT, and AI tapering down through PCT to permanent low dose usage off cycle (Bill Roberts’ letro protocol). A very common, and standard PCT for many users.

I have not found anything more radical to be more effective as of yet. And to the very best of my knowledge experienced no problems with subsequent HCG usage in the PCT or on cycle…But again my dose is certainly conservative.

I would love to see the actual blood work for different PCT’s across a wide range of cycles and protocols.[/quote]

Try to google Dr. scally and see if you can find his protocol, all labs were presented wiht number etc. very interesting stuff, i used to have it saved but can’t find it for the life of me.


#10

Find below a link that will take you to an outline of the Scally protocol and results achieved;

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

Terminology for doses - QOD - every other day, QD - every day, BID - 2 x per day


#11

thanks for psting that…i lost it some time back


#12

Bump the thread - has nobody here had a bad experience with high dose HCG?


#13

I have used high dose HCG which did nothing for my recovery long term.

I wouldnt call it a bad experience, i dont think people HAVE ‘bad’ experiences with it, just using it in a less effective manner…

Like injecting T weekly… it isnt ‘wrong’… just not best.


#14

How is the project going Cymru?

Has it started yet? I am interested in this study.


#15

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#16

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

One thing that we discussed was that natural athletes who display good power output have high test. This seems odd to me because I was always very explosive as a natural athlete - plyometrics etc could be done all day by myself and I had exceptionally fast punches and kicks or so I was told. Even having put on a lot of muscle (with AAS) and therefore more inertia to overcome, I can still jab very fast. I can do rapid yet powerful ‘double tap’ kicks on the heavy bag, etc.

So I would say that my power-producing abilities were pretty good. So that would mean I had naturally high T levels, according to research. However since I had no other high-T characteristics, I’m a bit confused.
[/quote]

I think you are confusing speed with power.
High energy produces speed.
High intensity produces power.

From your description, your nutritional requirements and your body type it appears to me you possess a greater capacity to produce energy than you do to generate and withstand intensity thus producing and sustaining power.

I think you are inclined to display good and sustained energy output, not power.


#17

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#18

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
But speed and power are tied together.

Power = work done/time taken.

BBB[/quote]

Yes they are tied together but not in values of work done but load capacity - hence the expression: “loaded”. It is a ‘fullness’, the very fullness of muscle - which implies being ‘full on’; [b]fully feeling and fully responding[/b].
a lot of people are ‘afraid’ of this, many are uncomfortable. Some are heavily trained to repress it, shut down certain circuits systems, one of them being intensity. Another is speed and another is endurance.
When one trains and experiences oneself bursting out of one’s skin, witnessing a muscle fullness which can make one appear bigger than one actually is, that is usually identified as power.

Power = load capacity/time sustained.

I think your tie could be described as: High energy output with moderate power output.
It does not mean you don’t have or lack power.
It just means given your particular body type and system efficiency, your organism opts to primary energy output with power output as a secondary function.

In other words: Energy output is your default.
Hence the difficulty in gaining muscle.

Your body has a preference. Your particular physical make up favors speed over power. Though both are present and available for usage.

I was faced with this dilemma whilst training for a martial art. I was constantly choosing the latter over the first - both physically and psychologically.

It is also a question of identification.
I don’t identify with speed, I identify with power.
Why?

One reason is:

I am a pure mesomorph.

There are others which are more intra-psychic
( i.e. My sense of self: I actually experience myself as ‘heavy weight’)
I am not sure what other aspects there are yet.
I haven’t thought about this before.
This is just what I witness.