Remarks by Al Gore

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
There was not an active mass killing machine going on at the present time.[/quote]

I forgot to remind Elk about the most notable “active mass killing maching” under the final days of Saddam’s rule: the UN sanctions.

Elk, as to your last post addressed to me, it seems only to address a number of straw points that I didn’t make. For example, I do not believe that the administration actually lied about WMD. Even Colin Powell who delivered the aluminum tubes story and the mobile labs story I think believed that there was WMD.

But nothing you have written on these boards suggest that you would have approved deploying the necessary ground forces to oust Saddam and the Baath party apparatus FOR ANY REASON. So one has to take most of your arguments about WMD, and comparisons to the entirely different military theatre of Bosnia, with a grain of salt.

Thunderbolt
Thank you for your well thought out response. It did not sway my stand, but it does make me think and I try to see it from your perspective!

Brian
Sometimes I wish we were sitting in front of each other (I don’t mean this in a hostile or trying to intimidate kind of way) because I would like to be able converse with you in a free flowing kind of way! I don’t agree with you, but you do make a good argument and you make me think!

Thunderbolt
One last thing in my example I used extremes such as not a pipsqueak in five years. I don’t actually mean this I know there will always be discord among people until the end of mankind its human nature, but you must see how you leave your argument open ended! If we wipe the terrorists out tomorrow we’ve won. If there is terrorist activity for the next decade its to be expected.

You seem to hold the theory that the only way to overcome the terrorist problem was to invade Iraq! I don’t believe so! I have faith that throught other actions military included we could have found a winning solution.

The bottom line for me is this: I will never believe Iraq was the imminent threat that Bush presented to us! I would not be against military action in Iraq if the reasons given were truthful and proper planning went into it. The way this administration went about it just gives me a sneaky underhanded feeling about the administration!

Do you realy believe Thunderbolt that if Kerry is elected we are suddenly going to fall victim to the terrorists and lose “The war on terror”?

Elk,

“but you must see how you leave your argument open ended!”

Nope. There’s nothing open-ended in the argument. If we wipe out the terrorists tomorrow, of course we have won. If terrorists continue to plague us for the next decade, of course we will have expected it. You’re not making sense.

“You seem to hold the theory that the only way to overcome the terrorist problem was to invade Iraq!”

Again, no. Never said that was the only way. There are many ways - improving internal security and defense, taking war to the Middle East…I’d even throw in free trade.

You jump to conclusions. Waging war in Iraq is part of a larger battle, but it is not the only thing to be done to combat the plague of Islamofascism. Iraq was a good start. One of the perceptions of the Islamofascists is that Western countries are too weak, ricj, comfortable, and timid to hit back. Iraq disrupts that perception quite nicely.

“I have faith that throught other actions military included we could have found a winning solution.”

Like what?

“Iraq if the reasons given were truthful and proper planning went into it.”

Disagreeing with the planning is fair, but who lied to you, Elk? And remember the definition of lying - to willfully deceive. You think Bush actually believed their were no WMDs in Iraq? Odd - even the USNC Resolution stated a fear that Saddam still had WMDs.

“if Kerry is elected we are suddenly going to fall victim to the terrorists and lose “The war on terror”?”

Not instantly, but long-term, having Kerry at the helm will weaken us. He doesn’t have the resolve to confront the enemies of America with impunity - he’d rather apologize to them and offer them money for their troubles.

Again, peace is managed, we must be thinking of the long-term, not short-term victories. Kerry, and the Democratic party in general, no have an attitude of defeatism, apologism, and appeasement. In short, weakness.

That’s one reason why Kerry won’t get my vote. Weakness invites aggression.

Thunderbolt
I hate to be over confident, but I do believe we are going to be able to test your theory about Kerry’s weakness come November. On the rest I guess we can agree to disagree!
Peace

tme and elk and a few other lefties: you guys really excel at context switching and hyperbole…

I object to you trying to give me military advice and you in turn accuse me of comparing myself to a general.

I state the fact that I am a military officer and you leap to the assumption that I think enlisted people are without value or merit…even though I am formerly one myself!!

I talk about a potential psychiatric condition, then you try to educate me to which I am aleady educated…as if I don’t know already what you are talking about…

Talk about being judgemental!
I am glad people like you are NOT in power.
Politically that is my mindset: not to make friends with liberals…but to DEFTEAT THEM! it doesn’t mean we couldn’t share a beer and a steak even…but I DON’T want you in power! the above examples are some reasons why!

[quote]I object to you trying to give me military advice and you in turn accuse me of comparing myself to a general.

I state the fact that I am a military officer and you leap to the assumption that I think enlisted people are without value or merit…even though I am formerly one myself!![/quote]

I think your comprehension (i.e. reading) skills are suffering. If you are referring to the comments I made they don’t say what you are reading into them at all.

Personally, I’d like people that think and consider alternatives in power. The mindset that might is the only method of solving problems is not very good in the playground or for international politics. Thank goodness the military doesn’t run the country!

Finally, making blanket statements about liberals and democrats as you do is just plain silly. Just because people want something done differently than yourself doesn’t mean they can’t be strong, dedicated, honorable, committed and effective. Many problems have more than one solution and even with all the bitching about right and left – as far as I can tell neither has run the country totally into the ground as of yet.

P.S. You may also notice this is not a negativistic viewpoint or comment, as has also been lumped onto the ludicrous crimes of the left list.

Gosh honey, it was just a joke. Pull your Maidenforms back out of your crack and have a weekend.

And go ahead and give Montrose an extra pat on the backside for me, will ya?

why tme…your remarks about Montrose sound very homophobic! I thought that type of hate speech was taboo amongst you enlightened liberals?? and it isn’t the first homophobic remark youve made.

another example of liberal hypocrisy!

Oh, I see, you are at war on several fronts. Oh boy. Oh no. The liberals are really running scared now let me tell you!

hey vroom…that took a while for your response…I guess you had your head buried in Elks and tme’s raisin sacks…

Ptr, did somebody hack your account? You are getting pathetic!

your pretty dull minded vroom…politics IS war

lol, go read your sun tzu, war should be the last resort…

Vroom,

Have you actually read Sun-Tzu?

Seems everyone likes to throw that out.

Sun-Tzu believed war was an instrument of the state. And he did not necessarily preach that war was the last option.

You would know this if you had read his material.

Yes, I’ve read Sun Tzu, however I do have to read translations of course. I own a copy though I’m not sure I can find it since the last time I moved.

Does not he state that war takes a heavy toll on the land and populace? That the best way to win is to do so without having to raise and maintain an army? That you must know both yourself and the enemy?

In the land of politics, war leads to a rift between the viewpoints. People are miseducated with warped negative campaigns or arguments. Partisanship gets in the way of progress unless one side is strong enough to force everything through. I’d contend you do your own country no good, that your policians do your country no good, by waging political war. It is a short sighted game.

In the forums, we have this war waged by people who have almost no understanding of the “enemy”, his viewpoint or his thinking. How can they ever hope to “win”? All we do is fire broadsides at each other by hurling invective and creating enmity instead of having reasoned discourse.

Fuck, I’ve probably read it fifty times and read several modern rewrites based on business or Internet principles. It is easy to disagree about what it means though as it requires interpretation or adjustmen to be applicable.

I like what vroom had to say about getting things done. Everyone has an idea about what’s best for a family, town, city, country, world, and any other entity out there. It seems people get caught up too much in what they think is wrong with the ‘other side’ that they can’t see a) what they do agree with or b) how a compromise can be made. If you can’t understand where you ‘enemy’, i.e fellow citizen, is coming from, it’s damn near impossible to figure out what kind of compromises migt be acceptable to him. Some group wants A, another wants B, so hell, let’s battle it out. Or, maybe, just maybe, sometime they will figure out that choice C isn’t completely disagreeable to both of them, and go with that. Sure, neither get what think is best, but at least they’re moving forward. And in a world like we have today, standing still seems to be the eqiulvalent of hurtling backwards at the speed of sound. Anyhoo, I’ll end my ramble and let the real stars of the thread get back at it. : )

Bob423-
I like what you pointed out! I will probably catch a lot of conservative flak with this one, but here it goes. I feel one of the main differences with conservatives namely those of the far right (Bill Orielly, Sean Hannity, Ann Coultier come to mind). Is that they see only their viewpoint their course of action and are totally unwilling to compromise or try and see it anothers way!

To me this is very narrow minded and self righteous. When I was younger my way of thinking was very similar to this where if I though I was right about something I thought I was justified in beating some one over the head until they saw things my way. Now that I am older and hopefully a little wiser I have learned that to many times in my life when I thought I was 100 percent right I was proven wrong! I believe this has taught me to be a little more open-minded and see that no matter how right you think you are… you can be proven wrong!

Like I said I think this is one of the main differences with the Right and the left. Although I do know many on the extreme left can be just as intolerable of opposing viewpoints! I believe most of the guys on the left that post on this forum try to put forth their opinion on the matter where as a lot of the guys on the right (not all) resort to name calling i.e.: talking about raisin sacks, liberal hippies, nutless cowards. I can be pretty sarcastic myself. I guess that is the nature of man though, we will always have opposing view points whether its cavemen fighting over a hindquarter of meat or two groups of people warring over religion and how they think things should be run!