T Nation

Religious Freedom Run-a-Muck?

This is very tricky topic. That law is discriminatory in that it only allows Christian faith healers, and only a subset of Christian faith healers at that. If one faith-based pseudoscience that even states in it’s “textbook” that it is not a science:

“Christian Science eschews what is called natural science, in so far as this is built on the false hypotheses that matter is its own lawgiver, that law is founded on material conditions, and that these are final and overrule the might of divine Mind.”

-page 127 of Science and Health, which clearly separates this discipline from what is today defined as science, then other faith healers and quacks should be allowed to as well. If Christians can use an unproven and baseless pseudoscience without being charged as criminals under that law quoted in the OP, then that law is a pretty clear violation of the religious rights of Muslims, Jews, and all other religions who may have their own rules about medical treatment.

That being said, I think it is otherwise a good law. It protects dependents from caregivers who may deprive them of proper healthcare based on beliefs that the dependent may not share. For instance, if the parents of a child belong to a religion that does not allow medical procedures such as transplants, blood transfusions, and other non-natural forms of medical treatment and their child does not. If the parents refused to let the child die based on beliefs the child did not share I consider that wrong. Actually, I would consider that wrong regardless of any of their beliefs, but that is beside my point. The same goes for caregivers of the elderly and disabled. If you are in charge of making medical decisions for another human being, you should be thinking of what is best for them based on their wants and beliefs, not forcing your own beliefs on medical care on the other person. If you are unable to do that, then turn medical power of attorney over to someone who can.

Finally, I do not think that individuals should be forced to accept medical procedures that do not go along with their faith. If your religion teaches that blood transfusions are wrong, you have the right to decline that treatment. All I am saying is that when making life and death decisions for someone else you should be thinking of what they would want, not what you want for them. If this kid really was a part of a religion that does not allow proper medical care and would not have wanted that treatment even to save his life, then his parents made the right call. Of course, this begs the question on whether someone who was raised on a certain belief system really believes those things, or is just going along with the indoctrination they received about what and what not to believe.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Lifticus,

probably when they let their minor child die by denying him medical treatment.[/quote]

Should it be a crime when parents do not take their sick child to the hospital no matter how slight the perceived illness is?

At what point does not being an exert on the matter become a crime?

edited

Their child dies and some people want to throw them in jail as if they are some indecent thugs.

Primitive and fucking twisted!

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

At what point does not being an exert on the matter become a crime?

[/quote]

When the kid is in constant agony for several hours?

This is just stupid. Wasn’t there some girl that died from cancer because her parents didn’t take her to a doctor?

CS

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
The story is quite sad. I do find it strange that they call themselves “Christian Scientists”. I wonder which part of that name lets their 17 year old son die, and I wonder how you keep your faith after you go through something like that. [/quote]

I wonder how someone can declare that they are Christian and believe in abortion and homosexual marriage. So you see there are plenty of things that some will just never understand.[/quote]

You don’t understand much ZEB, it is a character flaw. Churches change rules all the time, I am a patient man…[/quote]

Sure I do B r i a n. For example, I understand that you are full blown hypocrite who regularly loses debates on T Nation because of his twisted liberal logic.

I also understand that The Catholic Church has been against abortion for several hundred years.

This is what they say:

As for the nut cases who allowed their son to die without getting medical help, they should do some hard time.

These people are far too stupid to breed. It’s a shame they went a head and tried anyway.

If I were a Christian, personally, I would be blaming God over the parents. I guess this kid’s survival just wasn’t vital enough in God’s plan to warrant a healing. Assuming the Christian God exists, the only mistake the parents made was trusting him.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Sure I do B r i a n. For example, I understand that you are full blown hypocrite who regularly loses debates on T Nation because of his twisted liberal logic.
[/quote]

I’ve never actually read a debate between you two, but I know one thing with more certainty than I know the sun will rise tomorrow, and that thing is that if you, ZEB, are debating someone, they are right and you are wrong.

Sure, maybe they don’t have it 100% down either, but then again, of what consequence is it to an ant whether it is staring up at at the Burj or the Empire State building?

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Sure I do B r i a n. For example, I understand that you are full blown hypocrite who regularly loses debates on T Nation because of his twisted liberal logic.
[/quote]

I’ve never actually read a debate between you two, but I know one thing with more certainty than I know the sun will rise tomorrow, and that thing is that if you, ZEB, are debating someone, they are right and you are wrong.

Sure, maybe they don’t have it 100% down either, but then again, of what consequence is it to an ant whether it is staring up at at the Burj or the Empire State building? [/quote]

I was about to post something about that debate too. So Zeb this is for you…

  1. Why do you keep putting spaces in his name?

  2. What is your fascination with him that you continue to argue like this on multiple threads about the same thing. I would think the smarter of you 2 would have stopped by now, so the credibility of you both is fading.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
If I were a Christian, personally, I would be blaming God over the parents. I guess this kid’s survival just wasn’t vital enough in God’s plan to warrant a healing. Assuming the Christian God exists, the only mistake the parents made was trusting him. [/quote]

Well, they do believe that, actually. They believe it was God’s will for their son to die.

I’m not saying this is not idiot, just clarifying that they pretty much do believe what you are saying, though I wouldn’t use the word “blame,” for what they are probably feeling.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

  1. Why do you keep putting spaces in his name?
    [/quote]

I really want to know this, too.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

  1. Why do you keep putting spaces in his name?
    [/quote]

I really want to know this, too. [/quote]

I think I know why, and it’s damn funny.

[quote]TigerTime wrote

I’ve never actually read a debate between you two, but I know one thing with more certainty than I know the sun will rise tomorrow, and that thing is that if you, ZEB, are debating someone, they are right and you are wrong.

[/quote]

LOL, never actually read a debate but Zeb is wrong, congrats on winning the most ignorant post so far in this thread, well done chump.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

  1. Why do you keep putting spaces in his name?
    [/quote]

I really want to know this, too. [/quote]

Don’t want to speak for the man but i think Zeb thinks b r i a n is a little s l o w.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

As for the nut cases who allowed their son to die without getting medical help, they should do some hard time.[/quote]

x2

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
These people are far too stupid to breed. It’s a shame they went a head and tried anyway. [/quote]

I always feel like these people breed entirely by accident, just by trying to do something mundane like jump start a car.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
ZEB wrote:

Sure I do B r i a n. For example, I understand that you are full blown hypocrite who regularly loses debates on T Nation because of his twisted liberal logic.

I’ve never actually read a debate between you two…[/quote]

But since you’re an 18 year old punk you’ll stick your nose in anyway and give an opinion. Yeah, that makes sense run your mouth about something you don’t know anything about - It’s what you do in every thread.

A lefty siding with a lefty? OMG! Now who would have ever thought?

Sort of like you trying to understand what’s going on say…here.

Are your parents shipping you off to summer camp this year? Oh…and how was prom night you were supposed to give us a full report if you finally got laid.

Go ahead junior spill the beans.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s not religious freedom run amok[/quote]

Here is what I’m trying to get at: there is a law that specifically protects people from being liable if they call upon a Christian Science faith healer.

Read what I quoted and especially what I bolded in the OP.[/quote]

Well, I don’t know if the law exists or not. But neglect resulting in death is what it is. I am all for religious freedom. I am not for people making up their own rules as they go along and expect to be protected. If that were the case, almost any crime can become protected so long as somebody builds a ‘church’ around it.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
This is very tricky topic. That law is discriminatory in that it only allows Christian faith healers, and only a subset of Christian faith healers at that. If one faith-based pseudoscience that even states in it’s “textbook” that it is not a science:

“Christian Science eschews what is called natural science, in so far as this is built on the false hypotheses that matter is its own lawgiver, that law is founded on material conditions, and that these are final and overrule the might of divine Mind.”

-page 127 of Science and Health, which clearly separates this discipline from what is today defined as science, then other faith healers and quacks should be allowed to as well. If Christians can use an unproven and baseless pseudoscience without being charged as criminals under that law quoted in the OP, then that law is a pretty clear violation of the religious rights of Muslims, Jews, and all other religions who may have their own rules about medical treatment.

That being said, I think it is otherwise a good law. It protects dependents from caregivers who may deprive them of proper healthcare based on beliefs that the dependent may not share. For instance, if the parents of a child belong to a religion that does not allow medical procedures such as transplants, blood transfusions, and other non-natural forms of medical treatment and their child does not. If the parents refused to let the child die based on beliefs the child did not share I consider that wrong. Actually, I would consider that wrong regardless of any of their beliefs, but that is beside my point. The same goes for caregivers of the elderly and disabled. If you are in charge of making medical decisions for another human being, you should be thinking of what is best for them based on their wants and beliefs, not forcing your own beliefs on medical care on the other person. If you are unable to do that, then turn medical power of attorney over to someone who can.

Finally, I do not think that individuals should be forced to accept medical procedures that do not go along with their faith. If your religion teaches that blood transfusions are wrong, you have the right to decline that treatment. All I am saying is that when making life and death decisions for someone else you should be thinking of what they would want, not what you want for them. If this kid really was a part of a religion that does not allow proper medical care and would not have wanted that treatment even to save his life, then his parents made the right call. Of course, this begs the question on whether someone who was raised on a certain belief system really believes those things, or is just going along with the indoctrination they received about what and what not to believe. [/quote]

I agree, mostly. But like I said, what I don’t agree with is people make up rules as they go along.