T Nation

Religious Controversies: Homosexuality


#1

After reading parts of the evolution thread and the more recent trinity thread, I had an idea of making a series of threads related to religious controversies. One that came up in my mind is homosexuality.

Now, I know there is probably a thread somewhere about it already, however it might be good to start a new one. Maybe those previously opposed changed their minds, and vice versa. Maybe some of you came up with new arguments in support or against homosexuality.

I think threads like this are good because many of us are confronted with these controversies in our daily lives. I'm a Christian and someone asked me a few years ago if being gay was wrong. I said yes, but I couldn't explain why. Reading various responses from here can help many understand the opposing argument to better formulate reasons as to why you believe what you believe. Then you won't be dumb founded like me and provide no response.

I'm hoping this thread kicks off.

So, is homosexuality a sin, or is it another healthy variation of human sexuality?


#2

It is completely dependent on the individuals beliefs.

(Also inb4 "Christian Bigots" and forlife)


#3

According to the bible, men lusting for other men is a sin. Period.

But I think a healthy Christian would see that everyone sins, and being gay isn't any worse than committing adultery even in your heart (lusting after other women), or sex outside of marriage.

I've never understood the logic in thinking homosexuality is some how a special sin that should be singled out.

How can a guy that sleeps around condemn others for homosexuality?


#4

Are there other things you think are "wrong" but can't explain why?


#5

I hardly see how something that hurts no one and takes place between one or more consenting adults could possibly be considered in any way shape or form, evil.

If you disagree, you're going to have to explain your system of morality to me, and prove that it isn't filled with gaping holes the size of Jupiter.

I really don't care if you hate gay people, so long as your consistent and hate everyone else having sex too.


#6

Yep, numerous threads about teh gheyz already. You should look some of them up, for the lulz of course.

Maybe, for entertainment purposes, but that is about all teh ghey threads are good for.

These threads go down-hill pretty quick. You have a mix of social conservatives crying that the sky is falling because of teh ghey buttsecks, the outright bigots who would love to see teh gheyz killed publicly whilst fapping to the spectacle, and those such as myself who don't care what people do with their own genitalia.


#7

Religiously sex is only good within the confines of a sound traditional marraige. More specifically, "becoming one" is supposed to entail the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. I would say it's valid to think all of those can't happen in a homosexual relationship.

Hurting no-one else in no way ties into what I consider good or bad. I think suicide is wrong too.


#8

Well, see, the bible was written by a bunch of men. Sure, they claim Sky Wizard made them do it, but lets say, for the sake of argument, it was written by a bunch of heterosexual men.

Now, if it is the case that the bible wasn't, in fact, divinely inspired by a General Omnipotent Diety, we'd probably find that most of what it teaches favors those who wrote it. Notice how the bible puts men in charge of everything, suggests that men are superior to women and women should defer to them, identifies each member of its holy trinity as men, etc?

Most straight guys are uncomfortable with homosexuals/homosexuality. Put enough of them together, and you start getting anti-gay bigotry (often called homophobia, but calling a bias a fear isn't exactly the right wording).

So, maybe, just maybe, the men who wrote the bible weren't exactly cool with homosexuals, so they decided to put a "no gay shit" rule in, yeah? Of course, they wouldn't actually have to back up their position with logic or reason or any of that stuff... their iron clad defense was (and still is) "Sky Wizard says its bad."


#9

Why would that be valid?


#10

lol. not true. The bible never insinuates that men are better than women. If anything, the bible (and even more so jesus) teaches an equality of the sexes that was thousands of years ahead of it's time.

Mush of what you see as gender choice in language in the bible has to do with the limitations of language and translation. For example English has no third person singular gender neutral pronoun. Translators have to chose between make a statement plural or adding a gender.

You just sound hate blind.


#11

Because coming together in the spiritual sense is an entirely personal belief. I think it's reasonable and you can't say someone is wrong about it.


#12

Well, its not that I don't know how to explain why, its more so that I have a hard time finding reasons outside of the Bible to explain my stance. I know to just say to an unbeliever "the Bible says so" is not good enough. Heck, sometimes for me its not good enough. I know in the evolution thread, Push and Irish were using scientific theories to explain why they believe macroevolution is not a viable theory. So in this case, I'm just looking to see what those who are opposed to it and those who support it have to say. It helps to know both sides of the argument.


#13

Ephesians 5:22-24 -- The husband is head of his wife as Christ is head of the church (see other verses below). Neither his wife nor their parents are the authority in his family (cf. Gen. 2:24).

Does that sound like men are superior, that he is the "head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church"?


#14

Ephesians 5:22-24,33 -- Just as the church should submit to Christ, not rebelliously but respectfully, so the wife must abide by all her husband's decisions. The only exception would be if the husband commanded her to do something that would violate God's law (Acts 5:29).

Titus 2:5 -- Young women should be taught to be obedient to their husbands. This does not mean woman has less ability or less value than man (cf. 1 Peter 3:7; Matt. 20:25-28; Gal. 3:28). But someone must be in charge to make decisions in the home. God has determined that this responsibility belongs to the man.

(See also Gen. 3:16; Col. 3:18; 1 Peter 3:1-6; 1 Cor. 11:3).

Yup, totally equal... except that the man gets to make the decisions and the woman must obey. Equality of the sexes my ass.


#15

I dont mean to be direspectful to you here, but it sounds to me like you've already made up your mind and you're looking for "better" arguments against homosexuality.


#16

Yes I can. A person can hold those beleifs when it comes to themselves, not to others. Would it "be valid" that I said you and your wife/girlfriend could "come together in the spiritual sense" because of a belief I held about the two of you? How you two come together is up to you, not someone else.

Homosexuals connect physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, energetically, philosophically, etc, etc, same way heterosexuals do -- its up to the people involved, not people outside of them.


#17

No, it's family structure.

Where you work your boss is in a position of authority over you. Does that mean that your company is saying he is better than you? Or just that they realize, structure is conducive to a properly functioning company.

There is no other person at my work that can effectively do my job, but I still have a boss. A family unit doesn't function properly without the woman either.

And finish the passage "Husbands, love your wife as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it . . . So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church . . . For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shal.1 be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh"

Treating your wife as yourself makes them equals. If the husband is following a the biblical definition, he is the head of the family and his wife is an equal. It isn't a biblical marriage if he only abides by the first part of the passage.


#18

Not at all. I simply want to know why those that believe it to be ok think that, and those that believe its wrong think that. When I was younger I thought that Jesus and God were entirely different. Then someone presented me with evidence to suggest Jesus was in fact God in the flesh. My beliefs changed. However thats a topic for the Trinity thread. I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

I also want to make it clear that I am in no way a homophobe or a gay hater. One of my best friends in high school was gay. All I'm simply doing is tying to understand both sides.


#19

Always giving final authority to the man in a marriage denotes him as being superior.


#20

You are confusing what I think is wrong with what I think I have the right to judge. I never said anyone has the right to prevent homosexuality. I'm saying thinking it's wrong is a valid opinion. You are saying I can't believe 2 men cannot connect the same way as a man and wife. This is dumb.