Religion

Stoked,

I know, not a slip.
:wink:

DAN C

i’m curious what you think about something else.

would you say killing someone is ok? would you say raping someone is ok? would you say malesting a child is ok? would you say beating your wife is ok?

i think, for the most part, you would say none of these things are ok. i realize you can come up with exceptions for some of the them, but, i believe for the most part both of us will agree these arn’t good things, and for the most part, shouldn’t be allowed(ie, there should be laws against them).

where did you get the idea’s that these things are wrong? its our culture. western culture is HUGELY influenced by the judeo-christian ethic. american law is based around this(i think we can both say that… if you disagree, if you want, and if you give me some time i can come up with an argument for it, its really not hard at all, i mean, just looking at it basicly, untill 50 years ago, almost EVERYONE in america was a christian… the public schools were still based around christianity as well)

so, there is no absolute truth, but, our whole concept of right and wrong is based around the christian God’s absolute truths.

other cultures that arn’t influenced by the judeo-christian ethic like western culture is often don’t hold alot of the same standards. they are different(The extreme of this would be things like tribes that pratice canablism, but, even on a more moderate level the difference is obvious when compared to places like the far east).

i’m just curious on your thoughts with that all, what you think about it. (basicly what i’m saying is even if truth is relitive, your “standard” of truth, or the things you hold to be right and wrong, for yourself, are for the most part heavyly influenced by the judeo-christian ethic, ie, the idea of a creator God who has absolute truths)

“if there is no God(or no religion), then man is just an animal, and there really are no rights and wrongs. you have no reason to be responsiable to anything.”

Welcome to the absurdity of reality, one in which man must create his own meaning. It’s so scary that I can understand how one might run from it. Orienting yourself towards one static value or value system, which is created by YOU as the chooser, is one of the best ways to escape the scary possibility that you are just out there on your own.
Or you can choose to say that because there is no higher power, nothing is written in stone, man is just an animal, and therefore man can do whatever he wants. Again, this is a choice. You have chosen how you will act and orient yourself towards a previously meaningless world.
It’s always a choice, even if you don’t remember making it.
If you come to the conclusion that there is no real right and wrong outside of yourself, that does not prevent you from living your own life according to the right and wrong that YOU create. If you say that there is no “real” right and wrong, you have chosen that position. If you say that right and wrong is defined by the Ten Commandments, you have chosen that position, as well. It’s not that you reached out and discovered these things to be true!
Argue if you will, but I still don’t think you can step outside your own experience to discover hidden “truths” that are out there somewhere.
I don’t have a real problem with anything that any particular religion says, but most religions by definition assert that their own claims are eternal truths. They have to be so to be believable anyways. Who would be interested in a religion that says “We think X and Y, but we could be wrong!”?
There are no answers to be found out there. You just have to make it up as you go along. Good luck.

Phaedrus

damnit stoked, you wrote down everything I wanted to say!!! Ok, I will still try to throw in a few bits of info here. First off, nobody should be comparing humans to animals, we are blessed with the ability to reason, giving us the power to understand the world around us in ways far superior to most animals (i can go deeper into this, and will if someone wants me to). Second off, Dan C, even though the ancient greeks were not christians, they were religious and had gods, so stoked arguments about discoveries and whatnot can be carried over to them too. Also, you talk about not going around slaughtering/pillaging/hearing the lamentations of other people’s women even though you are an atheist. My question like stokes’s is even though you have no moral restrictions against doing these things (aka christians and muslims would go to hell but you won’t b/c you don’t believe in that stuff), why DON’T you do them?? Odds are it is b/c you were taught that they were wrong. Now who said they were wrong?? Where did the idea of morality stem from?? I can guarantee it has religious roots.

Also, and this is something I want everyone to think on, over the course of history whenever new peoples have been discovered, there has almost always been a belief system in place in that society’s culture (if someone has an example of one w/out please let me know). Even if it is not a god as we would define it, there is something that they view as a higher being or power of some sorts. Does this mean that in human nature we seek out a higher power of some sort instinctively?? Or is it merely a coincidence??

I can’t relly say what a world would be like without religion, I honestly think if we never had religion as we know it today we would be worshipping something else for whatever reasons. But you have to remember what religion has given us and how it has been a guiding light for people for centuries. And to know that some of the evillest men of our time (Hitler, Stalin) have viewed it as an obstacle in their attempts to subvert people’s minds to their own will.

Oh, and concerning scientists…

Scientists for the most part have been impeded, not assisted, by those carrying the religious torch. Religion has yielded nothing in the way of truth.
The assertion that most scientists (since 1400) accomplished what they did, due to their religious affiliation is silly.

Just a factoid: Most people in the pure sciences today are atheists or agnostics. 93% of the guys and gals in the National Academy of SCiences (i.e. the best of the best) are as well (but the poll is only with 1/2 responding).
Personally, i don’t think this is relevant to where this is going, but…

Dammit Ren, I was done with this:

  1. We are animals…there is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise.
  2. Animals do have the capacity for reason, culture, and even viewing the world from a non-solipsistic point of view; think of it as a matter of kind rather than degree.
  3. One can possess a sense of right & wrong without religion. Animals play by rules, so do we. Read a book on sociobiology, for chrissakes. Or better yet game theory. Think critically for a second and then consider the possibility that a society full of aggressive, rapers, pillagers, and murderers wouldn’t get anywhere, evolutionarily speaking. Cooperation evolves. And a framework of ethical behavior is a form of cooperation.
  4. Lastly, so what every tribe, club, or society looks for a deity? Humans are obviously a naturally curious lot, it’s one of our advantages. What cannot be explained is attributed to some mystical force. Notice the interesting trend through history: as science has plodded along, “God’s domain” has waned and been relegated to the gaps.

Actually, never mind. It doesn’t matter. I’m done.

There is no god, get over it.

REN: Have I got a good Dawkins reference for you when I get home.

In the sense of: even animals have ‘survival economics’ and corresponding adaptative strategies, poker face included. The mechanism resembles game theory in certain ways. A very juice explanation.

Just give me the time to dig it up. It’s fascinating to know that animals can evolve very refined strategies and have no need of God at all. Makes one wonder. Very much. I certainly did.

(I even think he wrote a book called ‘The Blind Watchmaker’ that covers this topic.)

More, soon.

BANGS: Dammit, we come from the same school of thought! LOL. You mentionned so much stuff that you almost pulled all of the rug under my feet.

To answer a couple of questions:

A) Why don`t I kill or rape or whatever bad/irrational actions?

First of all, even though I may sound acidic, vitriolic and viper-tongued sometimes, I am truly a non violent person. I just have a very hard time leaving uncomplete arguments/assertions unchallenged, be it just for balancing the pros/cons side of it.

Second, anybody knows the only way you advance without getting blown back is with the cooperation of others. You can fool some people all of the time, you can fool all people some of the time, but you cant fool all the people all the time. Cooperation, honesty, taking responsibility rarely has a bitter aftertaste or consequences of the like of quick kill one shot sales tacticsdeals. In short, I prefer win-win, repeat business to the thescrew you all I can` one-time deals, in all walks of life.

Third, even if I were so inclined to violent behavior, there are reasons why not to engage, and not just ideologically speaking. Even animals do it on an instinctual basis. For example, Konrad Lorenz, in On Aggression, stresses the restrained and gentlemanly nature of animal fighting. For him, the notable thing about animal fights is that they are formal tournaments, played according to rules like those of boxing or fencing. Animals fight with glove fists and blunted foils. Threat and bluff take the place of dealy earnest. Gestures of surrender are recognized by victors, who then refrain from dealing the killing blow or bite. I expect at least, if not better than that behavior from anyone who wants to be considered human.

I could go on and on and on. But in the end it really does all boil down to game theory, economics, neural networks, Maslow`s pyramid and incentives.

I am short on time, but suffice it to say you can learn a lot of humans by just observing animals. Worry not, it IS your background OS (Operating System). Under harsch conditions, you WILL (most probably) revert to it. The opposite is far less evident. I have never seen, as a rule, animals evolve to human nobility when hard pressed (nor could they). They just stay true to their own time-tested nature.

More later!

ACtually, Morg is right. Arguing on the internet…

I apologize and am embarrassed to have written that…

Phaedrus,

thank you! lol, finally, someone who gets it.

i would type more, but i think i’ll say everything i wanted too when i respond to everyone else.

bangs,

“Scientists for the most part have been impeded, not assisted, by those carrying the religious torch. Religion has yielded nothing in the way of truth.
The assertion that most scientists (since 1400) accomplished what they did, due to their religious affiliation is silly.”

all i can say is your flat out wrong… lol, not much more then that. go dig up some auto bio’s of the famous scientists of that time(which would include just about every one that made any important discovery)

dan c & bangs…

my head is just spinning… lol. not because i don’t know what to say, i simply don’t know where to start.

i suppose i’ll make this short. i’m a “results” person. i DO look at things very objectively, and i judge things based on their results. i won’t get into this, but just the whole worldview that stems from relitive truth and no God… is well… its shit…

i really don’t know how to put it all into words(well, i do, but its way to much). a creator God just makes sense… ahh… lol, i wish i could keep it all under 10,000 words, but i can not.

well, i think i’ve said all i can… like someone said, its all a choice, whatever you choice, you believe by faith. a God can’t be proven either way, and going to atheism by defult is not logical to begin with. i’ll keep checking this incase someone asks me a direct question though…

You’re correct, atheism is not the logical choice. Agnosticism is. No secret there…trivial point.

Oh yeah, not very discerning are you?
Read my post again, and again…

Flat out wrong? Got some advice for ya, try reading the books yourself.

Comments on some of the posts here. Dan C obviously espouses to relativism and it’s contradictions just leap out at you when reading his statements. He says the truth is how you define it. He just happens to like good laws, specifically Texas-style. Well, why should anyone believe him when he says Texas-style laws are good? Even if he has strong convictions about them! Hitler had strong convictions about mass murdering Jews so how come he was wrong? Or was he?

Dan C says there is no such thing as absolute truths. Well is he ABSOLUTELY sure?

He uses the law of non-contradiction to disprove the law of non-contradiction. This is non-sensical!

The more one tries to disprove the law of non-contradiction the more it will disprove you.

Once you challenge what I am saying - that their are absolutes - you defeat yourself because you are inferring you are right and I am wrong.

By the way, Atheism is a logical contradiction. Bertrand Russell recognized this and so moved to agnosticism.

It would be better just if people kept their beliefs to themselves, and didn’t try to push/ force them on others. That go yea into all the world nonsence is responsible for too many wars and too many people suffering and dying. If their is a God who is all powerful, I am sure he does not need us to bow down and worship him or kill others who don’t. P-22

ZEP: Good food for thought. Thanks.

zeppelin,

exactly… the funny thing is when you try to point this out to people who don’t believe in absolute truth(ie, the insanity of it all), they have no clue what to do… they either just ignore you, or start to babble on with excuses normally based on circular reasoning.

i think its funny…

“It would be better just if people kept their beliefs to themselves, and didn’t try to push/ force them on others.”

me too, how about the goverment and most people stop trying to push their religion on me, which is secular humanism… the goverment and most people say christians need to stop pushing things down others throats, when every day i turn on the tv, EVERYTHING on is pushing secular humanism down my throat. they push gay rights, they abortion, they make pre marital sex look like something that should be normal…

its a pretty big statement for someone to say(or infer…) that christians need to stop pushing there believes on others… it works both ways… and humanists are pushing way harder then any christians i know…

when people say all that crap it makes me mad…

“That go yea into all the world nonsence is responsible for too many wars and too many people suffering and dying.”

again, what are you talking about? i have no clue where people get this pure crap, but the gospel(the message of jesus christ) is deffinitly not responsiable for “too many wars and too many people suffering and dying”… yes, there are cases where people have been misslead, but in those cases they did what they did inspite of the message, not for the message…

besides, lets compare the number of wars and deaths caused by people other then christians(or, lets say atheists) compared to the number that were started by christians… there is no comparision. the greastest war in history(WW2) was started by an atheist…

i wont go on… i just don’t know where you people get some of this stuff…

“If their is a God who is all powerful, I am sure he does not need us to bow down and worship him or kill others who don’t”

your right… he doesn’t…

besides… whats so wrong with christianity anyway? way are so many people against it?

what did jesus even teach? he taught(as far as practical things), to love people, help people, and all of that stuff… he said don’t cheat on your wife, don’t kill people… and many more… he wanted people to love…

what else? He (being God), wants people to have a relationship w/ himself, he wants people to love him, and to follow him…

now tell me… whats so bad about that? it sounds like a pretty good message to me…

well, i’m going to step out here, and i know i will probably make alot of people here very angry when i say this… but, the truth hurts, and everyone here KNOWS this is the truth… weither you want to admit it or not…

the “bad” thing about this message is then you can’t do what you want… people are selfish… then you’d have to follow rules… here’s the key… if you follow jesus, you’d be acountable to someone… and most people don’t want that…