T Nation

Religion, Rights, and Morality

Isn’t this a conversation we can’t have without first establishing what rights are and where they come from? Without God to ground morality, there is no objective good or bad and no such thing as a right. Rights were formulated based on the presupposition that God exists, right?

I see lots of leftists bash Christians in the west without understanding the entire system of rights stems from Christianity. And now that is gone, what right is safe from simply being dismissed as no longer one?

From the Islamic perspective one has a right to defend himself, his family, his property, his Ummah and the Islamic state. You can go to Muslim lands where everyone has an RPG, AK47 and a dusty PKM under a tarpaulin out back. But when the sharia is in effect and murderers get executed, thieves have their hands cut, turns out its a pretty safe place to live.

Western mass shootings are caused by alienation, lack of identity and meaning, it is a spiritual problem. It is why some of the wealthiest, safest nations have the highest suicide and drug dependency rates in the world. Without meaning people can do some pretty terrible things and not even feel bad about it.

You can have my RPG when you pry it from my dusty based hands - Abu Hajar.

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Do you seriously think countries with Sharia law in effect are safe or democratic? They have sky high rates of rape/sexual abuse, spousal abuse, female genital mutilation, most rank as some of the lowest countries in the world on the democracy index/HDI. Human rights abuses are rifle in most of these “safe places”. Especially given the way certain groups have repeatedly and consistently inaccurately interpreted Sharia law as to justify mass murder, rape, sex slavery and the likes.

Women’s rights are abysmal to none… I can keep going. Execution for being gay? Yup… Fairly sure a large portion of heroin was produced in Afghanistan, a predominantly Islamic country

Some may label me as disingenuous here… But no… You’re calling some of the most problematic countries in the world “safe” and an effective grounds for what constitutes adequate rights/civil liberties.

@marine77 thoughts on Shariah law? I’ve noticed you’ve liked the above post

I’m sure the Phillipines are an example of an extremely wealthy nation

They have a huge drug problem that statistically has hardly budged since Duterte came in yet they shoot drug users on sight.

SE asia generally serves as a large manufacturer/exporter and user of methamphetamine and heroin. They aren’t wealthy or Western. @dt79 can probably elaborate more accurately.

Poverty/desperation and wealth, greed and boredom all breed grounds conducive for drug dependence. Should also note people tend to swap one vice for another. Alcohol might not be common in Iran, but hashish purportedly is. Tobacco consumption/addiction is also rather common in the Middle East. Hashish is arguably the lesser of two evils, but can still serve as an escape from reality.

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I don’t need a Coran, a Torah or a Bible to tell me murder, rape and theft is objectively abhorrent.

It’s not the 1500’s anymore. Organised religion imo has nothing to do with rights, it was and still is used as a means to control the masses (not always a bad thing depending on the context). Civil liberties has nothing to do with God.

This is historically inaccurate.

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Lots of stuff already in the “war on drugs” thread.

To sum it up:

The Golden Triangle:

Massive levels of corruption - Established cartels and a long history of collusion with government officials. Similar to what was shown in Narcos.

Geography - trade routes, entry points = ease of smuggling (Which is one of the reasons why I’m not getting involved in any debate about guns in the US. I do not know how easy it is to obtain illegal firearms. It also wouldn’t surprise me that some First World countries have drug problems due to this as well.)

Poverty and lack of opportunity - Profit motive for traffickers; feelings of hopelessness for users.

Punishment without rehab - Drugs are GOOD SHIT. Coming off them causes withdrawals. You don’t give people blowjobs in dark alleys for a can of coke if you’re a “sugar addict”. You can’t expect someone who does that to fear punishment either unless you can effectively keep drugs out of jails.

No follow up programs to reintegrate users into society - What is this individual going to do when he gets out even if you can keep drugs out of jails? He now has a record, which would take away his employment prospects, which would put him in a state of even more hopelessness. Even if he doesn’t do anymore drugs, it’d be quite likely he’d do something illegal for survival like start selling them.

Why do you all think Duterte said “just shoot them all”? He may not be a good President but he’s not stupid. He understood the reality of it all.

Do not misconstrue what I’m going to say next:

That WOULD have worked in the short to mid term if there wasn’t any backlash and he was able to go all the way. But would any sane person want that?

AND it wouldn’t solve the problem in the long term if the entire system isn’t changed AND people’s standard of living don’t increase substantially.

You wanna make these kind of arguments when you look at certain countries doing extreme shit to rectify certain social problems, look at ROOT of the problems they’re trying to prevent or eradicate first.

Is it worth it to give up human rights for temporary peace of mind? You’ll end up screwing over the next generation, not protecting them.

EDIT:

Btw, Shariah Law is interpreted and implemented differently in different countries. Some simply serve as a minor addition to statutory law such as courts for family issues like inheritance etc. It’s not applied to the same degree throughout the world.

Also, here’s a question for anyone who doesn’t understand how the more authoritarian governments work:

If a government has the power to control the majority of the press and the release of national statistics, do you think it would be logical to believe their stats? You guys in the States don’t even trust Fauci and the CDC. Why would you trust any authoritarian government in other parts of the world that’s known to use draconian methods of punishment on even minor offenders?

Does this make any sense? What kind of society do you think would accept this? Definitely not one that would really question anything they say regardless of how absurd it may be. Who or what’s keeping them honest or transparent?

Even China has to go on MASSIVE propaganda campaigns and execute elaborate widescale methods of info manipulation to prevent people from screaming about “human rights” to hide shit like the Uyghur situation. Their citizens would never even accept anything like public flogging TODAY.

Do you trust China?

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Actually there are probably one or two people on here who would back Duterte’s measures in terms of execution for those involved in the drug trade based upon their own vested sense of morality/anecdotes associated with this subject matter.

Some do back these measures, but for enacted policy to work you need almost uniform agreement that can only achieved through fear mongering and propaganda.

A cultural shift can do wonders for demonizing and reducing rates of vice consumption. I’d use Australia’s stance on cigarettes as an example but after a certain point the approach started to backfire. Only recently, as in over the past few years.

Initial restrictions/advertising campaigns were met with a positive response, then excessive taxation to the point of 50$/pack, talk of banning smoking in public/in front yards (on private property) entirely coupled with exaggerated statements and a group who didn’t want to quit led to a black market/underground scene. Now the vast majority of tobacco consumed in Australia consists of black market product and whilst youth consumption has decreased dramatically, the caveat is that they’ve all switched to vaping nicotine.

These people then switch to cigarettes when they can’t access a vape, as people will justify the switch despite the initial stance of “I’ll never smoke, only vape” when they become slave to a vice. Australia is now hilariously imposing a van on vaping, instating jail time for those who try to import nicotine e liquid/vapes without a prescription. Every second supermarket/convenience store sells vapes under the counter.

At my university more than half of the youth demographic uses these devices habitually, most daily. I think our state and federal governments are going to be in for a shock when rates of youth cigarette intake skyrocket once again, we are going to be back to square one akin to where we were decades ago. That’s just my opinion

To note, cigarettes are so terrible for you it’s hard to exaggerate a public health response/media campaign, but somehow Australia has managed to do this. We are the KINGS (UK slightly behind) of bullshit media hype/hysteria and polarisation. Probably because politicians/news outlets have nothing better to do or talk about.

Somewhat similar to what you’re talking about I suppose, though I’m going off on a tangent. One drastic policy change elicits short term benefit, only for long term detriment to occur.

I’d doubt it if they really looked up what his measures were AND what they resulted in. It wasn’t just execution of major traffickers by police.

For example, how do you differentiate between an addict possessing drugs and a trafficker when you raid a district with orders to “shoot them all”?

There are no countries that implement the sharia as there is no Islamic State I should of been clearer.By the way sharia includes both the hudud such as stoning, beheading, amputation as punishments. But it also includes rights to people living under it, such as a functioning Islamic state that provides for its citizens, defends them, upholds their rights according to the sharia, defends Muslims from aggression etc. Nowhere in the world does this. There is no Caliphate. Saudi Arabia for example is a puppet state of Israel and America which is currently bombing Muslims and engaging in a genocide in Yemen and selling the Ummah’s resources to the west in return for being propped up with western might. They also betrayed the Caliphate and sided with the British Empire to grab power and sieze the holy sites under their barbaric, inhumane and unislamic Najdi creed promulgated by the Kharajite Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, slaughterer and enslaver of Muslims who stayed loyal to the Ottomans and declared most Muslims as Kafir.

I don’t support democracy I am a Muslim. Democracy is haram legislation is for the creator, giving men the power to remove his laws and create laws forbidding his own, is a form of idolotry and polytheism. Islam is a total system. Islam doesn’t need to submit to democracy more than a cure should sumbit to a disease.

I completely agree, because they only implement bits and pieces of the sharia. Killing the murderer and rapist and Heroin importer does make daily life safer for most people, but these places without wholistic Islamic govenrance create terrible, inhumance barbaric secular dictatorships funded by the west. Who imprison muslims, who torture, who terrorise the populations with the backing of the US empire. Most have long since abandoned any facade of Islamic law and have instead become hellscapes similar to Egypt where western backed secular dictators have been electrocuting, puling fingernails, training dogs to rape prisoners tied over chairs and pouring boiling water over Muslims at the behest of US and Israeli interests for generations. The torutre of Muslims in Egypt in particular created the frenzied evil khawarij that emerged from those torture dungeouns. Al Qaeda, ISIS, all of them stem from what went on there. If we had of had Islam in Egypt we wouldn’t have these dogs of hellfire controlling huge swathes of the globe recently in Syria, Iraq. Funding them for decades also didn’t help. Neither did invading the Muslim world.

Most accounts of how bad things are in non western societies is simply hysterical projection. For example every nonsensical story of how a woman was raped at 16 and put to death for it etc, the punishment for zina for unmarried people is lashing and or banishment for a year. We simply don’t believe in convicting people without evidence. To keep women safe we implement a strong patriachal system. Where a man is obligated to die for the honour of his woman, in return a woman is to safeguard her honour. It is the system the west had until feminism, atheism and moral degeneracy subverted their conservative Christian society.:

https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/82752/punishment-for-zina

Rates of abuse and rape also shows most Muslim countries are safer than America:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/rape-statistics-by-country

When the Taliban came to power they gave poppy growers a choice. A bullet to the head or grow another crop. Quoting:

In July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the UN to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world’s most successful anti-drug campaigns. The Taliban enforced a ban on poppy farming via threats, forced eradication, and public punishment of transgressors. The result was a 99% reduction in the area of opium poppy farming in Taliban-controlled areas, roughly three quarters of the world’s supply of heroin at the time.

The Taliban outlawed opium growing, selling, production, bacha bazi, prostitution. After the invasion the Northern Alliance brought all of these things back. To the point ANA are raping boys on US bases as US military sit and Soldiers and Marines are ordered to do nothing about it. And when an honourable US serviceman punched one of these vermin he was drummed out of the service.

I totally agree Brother. Islam was sent as a mercy to mankind. As such, Islam has conditions to amputating the thieves hands for example. Was he stealing out of hunger or to feed his family? Then his hand can not be cut. He must be stealing a certain amount etc. Did a man kill another but it was a crme of passion and he sincerely repents? The family of the victim can give mercy and accept his Toba.

Allah shows mercy to those who show mercy to people in the dunya and he won’t show mercy to the one who doesn’t show mercy to others. We are all brothers in humanity and Allah knows our situations and hardships. One of my favourite stories from the hadith literature gives an example of the Mercy of God:

There was a lady who sold herself and committed many sins. She came upon a dog that was tied up and could not reach food or water. She took off her shoe and gathered water in it from a well, gave the dog some of her food and untied it. For that act alone God forgave all her sins and granted her paradise.

God knows our circumstances and for that woman, a prostitute, to do that act of kindness, to show mercy to an animal, was greater than if I had given the charity of Uhud. The criminal forced into bad circumstances through poverty and ignorance could be more beloved to Allah than one who prays 5 times a day, gives charity, fasts and does many good deeds. If the criminal in prison had been given the pious mans life, maybe he would be a better muslims than him, maybe he would of used the gifts Allah bestowed on the other so much better, it would make him ashamed of himself.

May God guide and protect us all. Ameen.

No one is saying atheists can’t have a moral system. The point is it can’t be objective. Your opposition to Murder from a materialist world view is as arbitrary as someone who is pro rape. They are both simply opinions. Subjective.

Murder is only objectively wrong if I have something to ground my morality in, an objective standard. As Dawkins says, the belief rape is wrong is as arbitrary as the fact that weve evolved 5 fingers instead of 6. Most atheists I talk to seem to never of even given a moments thought to moral epistemology.

There are a few countries that run their court systems under the context of shariah law. Somalia relies on shariah culture/penal code. The permissibility of female genital mutilatioin varies by Islamic sect. In Somalia over 90% of women are subject to this practice, it is also rather common in Pakistan within the Dawoodi Bohra denominations amongst others. There are various types of FGM, with snipping of the clitoriis being the most barbarc

Note as a jew I find circumsision a form of male genital mutilation, so I’m not inconsistent. Though FGM typically occurs at an older age and the aim is to keep the female “pure” or to insist she doesn’t feel sexual pleasure (but immense pain) during intercourse.

Laws regarding sexual assault are heavily situated towards benefiting the attacker in many of these societies.

The problems with many of these extremely conservative countries stems from the rate of rape/sexual violence, forced/arranged underaged marriages, barbaric punishments, mass poverty and famine etc. A sixteen year old girl can’t really consent to marrying a 45 y/old dude that was assigned to her at birth, nor does she have a choice over the matter NOR can she prevent having to sleep with him.

I don’t agree with these punishments aside from the most barbaric of crimes. Perhaps serial killers or serial rapists (like Mr Cruel in Australia) ought to be subjected to this.

It should be noted the majority of rapes/abuse go unreported in muslim countries as people can be and are tried and punished for infidelity if they’re been raped. Rape statistics in Uganda regarding reported rates are low, yet surveys paint a very different story with the statistical majority of women having experienced physical or sexual violence.

The two don’t correlate with one another as secular, conservative and non-practicing muslims exist. If you look at the HDI (not only the democracy index) of most middle eastern countries they’re abysmally low/lagging behind the Western world. Populational satisfaction also tends to lag behind. Workers rights, womens rights (divorce rights, domestic rights, ability to travel and more) lag behind, these societies are actually systemically sexist and at times misogynistic in my opinion. Perhaps you could change my mind?

These agendas are typically taken out of proportion, typically when democratic due process isn’t present. Then you have regimes killing “anyone they don’t like”, political rivals, journalists etc.

Did you know Hamas was accidentally created by Isreal? Just a fun fact many aren’t aware of.

We fundamentally disagree here. We don’t need a system preventing women from driving, women aren’t somehow so fragile and inferior comparative to man that they need a male guardian protecting them at all times.

Yes, however the draconian and barbaric nature of the Taliban leads to a largely suppressed and unhappy population. Great… no heroin (they’ll find something else, whether it’s as disgusting as jenkum or as simple as fermenting alcohol in your own home).

Wasn’t the aim of ISIS to re-establish a caliphate?

If I may ask (impartially, I won’t judge or question the answer you give to me). What do you think of the following organisations

  • hezbollah
  • Hamas
  • The Palestinian Authority
  • The Israeli defence force
  • Al Queada
  • ISIL
  • The Taliban
  • Boko Harem
  • Al-Shabaab
  • Islamic Jihad movement in Palestine
  • Abu Sayyaf
  • Harkat-ul Jihad al Islami
  • Jaishe Mohammed
  • İBDA-C
  • Harakat Ansar Iran

I believe religion was created in effort to control people during a more barbaric timeframe. To install moral fundamentals during a time wherein morality was askew and open to interpretation without an engrained element of criminal justice. People needed motivation, something to believe in to keep going

With modern technological advancements, the progression of scientific ideological concepts and whatnot religion exactly doesn’t stand the test of time. It can be implemented to ensure just behaviour/policy, but much of what religion preaches (particularly got homosexuals and the likes) is oppressive, outdated and harmful. Times progress, there are certain elements associated with religion I argue we no longer require. The fundamentals that install moral and just behaviour are essential, but once again I don’t need holy scripture to tell me not to rape, steal, bully or harass.

Some people still require faith, a sense of belonging; a spiritual reason or motivation to behave in a just and kind manner. Others such as myself don’t require this, and I think those who NEED to believe in consequence after death in order to not behave like a deviant have other problems they need to deal with. God or no god, heaven or hell there is never an excuse for cold blooded murder, callous rape etc.

To note, prostitution is legal where I live. I view the profession as a job, nothing more.

I wouldn’t want my daughter (if I had one) involved with it, but I don’t find the practice particularly immoral. Sex, provided relationships/friendships and the likes aren’t impacted isn’t a big deal to me. I find generalised promiscuity at times gross and I dislike the way some people callously treat sex as to allow it to cross over and affect personal relationships (i.e a friend having sex wth his best friends crush… that’s a horrible thing to do), but in terms of hooking this is typically absent and it isn’t the prostitutes fault if the client is a John with a wife. That’s on the John…

As to STD’s and the likes. I’d look into the regulatory practices behind prostitution in countries with governments regulated brothels. It’s SO strict/stringent, the chances of contracting something are slim to none.

my objective standard is that murder robs someone of the ability to live. They can’t have life experience… I’ve taken that from them, therefore it’s wrong. Not to mention the suffering it imposes upon others. It’s not an opinion, there is morality behind my sentiment. That is that it is abhorrent to rob someone of the pivotal foundations associated with living. The dead can’t have a family, the dead can’t see the world, the dead can’t contribute to society. Those who lived with and loved the victim suffer egregiously. There is morality and thought to my sentiment, and it has nothing to do with religion.

My biggest qualm with organised religion is the lack of evidence. As an autistic individual I’m a stickler for facts and minute details. Religion doesn’t provide this, rather it requires a lot of blind faith and devotion. This is something I don’t have, yet it doesn’t make me a heathen contrary to what some might believe.

I’m not an atheist, I believe there is something out there beyond my understanding. I can’t conceptualise why I’m here or why anyone is here for that matter. I believe trying to come to some semblance of an understanding as to why everything (including why the greater universe is the way it is) is futile. We are a tiny, tiny insignificant speck of what is on a grand scale much bigger than this world in it’s entirety.

This isn’t to mean nothing matters, I’m not purely nihilistic. We need to take in and appreciate what we have in the moment/during the timeframes of our lives, as this may be all we have… or not, maybe there is something afterwards, who knows.

Religion also seems to serve as a way of providing assurance for those who need to be in control of these variables. But there is no control, being told of a definitive “hell”, a satan etc is in my opinion an illusion if you are to interpret it literally. Rather I view all of this as symbolic to morality, good and evil etc which to me exists and will always exist regardless of religion.

apologies for what I assume are a slew of grammatical inconsistencies, my keyboard is broken and keeps filling in, double typing and pressing keys I haven’t pressed.

I’m HONESTLY trying to understand your stances without misconstruing your words, which is why I’m not questioning your other points in your post yet.

Are you saying that the Taliban was one of the only regimes (for lack of a better word) that carried out a:

? Or at least governed in a manner closest to it?

Yeah says a person who has never had to exist under an Islamic state as a Dhimmi.

Ill be watching to see where this goes. Should be entertaining.

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It’s barbaric.

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They definitely love to mock Christianity while giving Islam a free pass. Not exactly known for being intellectually or morally consistent though.

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That’s the left wing right? Plenty of universities have a mosque, polices in place particularly for Islamic students

Where’s the synogauge I ask you? Where’s the church? Where’s the allocation for buddhists. Tons of “down with Isreal” posters. I’d rip them off the wall (alongside the posters advocating for marxism and socialism) if I didn’t think it’d potentially result in my safety and tuition being jeopardised.

Many of them weren’t actually prohormone’s! Superdrol, Epistane, DMZ, pheraplex etc were all active hormones. They were legitimately harsh c-17aa anabolic steroids. 1-testosterone initially wasn’t a PH ether, it was oral dihydroboldenone.

The others like the Andro’s, halodrol etc were pro hormones, but many (like halodrol) were active in their unaltered form. Halodrol was Chlorodehydromethylandrostenediol which converted (complicated back and fourth process too) to chlorodehydromethyltestosterone, which is the main drug the Eastern Germans gave to kids to win the olympics back in the 70’s

There were a very few select here selling msten/sarms here up until last year. There’s still one or two legitimate online supplement shops that sell msten, DMZ, epistane, sometimes superdrol, pmag, halodrol some of the andro’s etc in Australia.

In the UK to my knowledge they were never properly banned, AAS aren’t illegal there so there wasn’t as much of an incentive to do so. They’re still sold somewhat openly.

I never used any PH’s aside from 1-DHEA which may or may not be effective at all. Only took it for about a week, not long enough to gauge effectiveness. Wasn’t illegal in the USA and still isn’t. Thought it’d be a boost to TRT

How do they give Islam a free pass? They whine about how we won’t support homosexuality and feminism and liberalism constantly. Democrats voted to first sanction Iraq and kill a million Iraqis, then supported illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

The difference is practising Muslims defend Christians and refuse to bow to liberalism. Where as Christians start tap dancing about how they are the good ones and Islam is bad because it is too mean to gays and transexuals despite Christianity having the exact same punishments as Islam and Judaism, its just that Christianity was smashed by secularism and no western Christians actually want to live by theor own religious texts anymore.

In doing so Christians not only dig their own theological graves but reinforce the left wing narrative that being traditional and against degeneracy, homosexuality, adultery etc is wrong (Christianity has the death penalty for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality too). Which is why western Christianity is now impotent and culturally irrelevant.

Democrats love giving the settler colonial ethnostate Israel billions which they use to bomb Muslim and Chrsitian Palestinians. Liberals condemn Muslims and Christians and prostrate to Jews. Which is why they denounce Richard Spencer for wanting his ethnostate but love an actual jewish ethnostate. It isn’t Muslims you can’t criticise. Howard Stern spent an entire day on radio talking about nuking Muslims after 9/11 and he never lost a cent of income.

Mel Gibson said anti jewish things and he was blacklisted. Pretending you can’t criticise Islam is just cowardice. Charlie Hedbo mocked Muslims for years and liberals cheered them. They did one caricature of Jewish people, the cartoonist was fired and faced legal action.

Muslim are not the group you can’t criticise. or the ones pushing CRT, standpoint epistemology, feminism, gay rights for decades that created the modern western decline.

This isn’t a left wing narrative. Not bashing gay people has been in for quite a few decades now amongst both the left and the right.

That isn’t what objective means. This is pretty basic philosophy Brother.

Also what do you mean evidence? Scientific fact cannot be proven beyond the level of hypothesis firstly and secondly Why would you assume you can arrive at truth about metaphysics through empiricism?

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the death penalty for the one who engages in homosexuality. Well actually Hanafi Fiqh only has lashes for unmarried homosexuals caught engaged in sodomy. Malikis, Hanbalis and Shafi schools all have death for both married and unmarried.

You keep calling yourself a Jew, but you seem to have the same definition the Nazis had of a Jew, a genetic and racial one. You don’t appear to believe in Judaism, or in God, so why even use the label? Is this an American thing? I see apostates in America who like people like Illhan Omar, who called for sanctions on Brunei, supports abortion, feminism, Marxist groups like BLM. All of these things are clear kufr. Yet these people still label themselves as Muslims in America.

Muslims honour Ibrahim AS, Musa AS and all the prophets of God. And as such we obey God and the laws passed down to his messengers. Our morality does not bend based on modern cultural norms and fancies. Homosexuality was evil when God destroyed the people of Lutt and it will always be evil. And only munafiq and apostates claim to be people of faith but make lawful what God made unlawful.

Always the way. Muslims defend Christians. Christians throw muslims under the bus. Your bible has the same huddud punishments Brother. Muslims just aren’t ashamed to say we believe in them.