Religion of Peace

[quote]olderguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Just because a few people promote religion in a negative light, you can’t base the whole religion off of this. There are not that many people in the protest compared to the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

Islam is a peaceful religion, so you can’t let a few people be the basis of an entire religion. Every religion has good and bad.

To tmoney and shoebolt,
I am not knocking all of Islam and am aware that there are a lot of Muslims that would like to live in peace and have no part in the radical aspects. But please don’t try and say it’s only a “few”. A small percentage of 1.5 bil
is more than a few.

If you aren’t saying the video is over the top, then you would have to say they could make the world a very dangerous place. Even a small percentage of them.

Again, I know what I think and I think the world is in trouble.

We aren’t talking about the KKK here. [/quote]

It is only a few people. 1 percent of 1.5 billion is 150 million, and I know there are FAR less radical Muslims than that. The percentage is totally insignificant to the rest of the religion. So I think it is still an extremely small number of people.

The other 99.9% + of Muslims live in peace and do not condone or practice these acts.

[quote]derek wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:
That means that the fault does not lie withing the religion, but within certain people. If terrible things have been commited in the name of Chrstianity, yet it is a peaceful religion, then that means the fault did not lie within the religion, but the people who were practicing it.

Stop being so short-sighted.

From the Koran:

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111 (check out the number!)

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

I’m sure there are Bible references that seem scarey but I don’t see evidence of thousands of Christians killing in Jesus’s name. Like I said, we’re talking about OUR lifetimes. Now not centuries in the past.

[/quote]

If you are quoting Islam’s holy book, PLEASE SPELL IT RIGHT!!!

QURAN, not Koran

Thank you

[quote]derek wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
Christians have done their share of bloodshed. So has probably every other religion. The extreme ends of all of them are he worlds biggest killers.

I agree, but we’re talking about today. I cannot do anything about the somewhat distant past.

It just seems that that theory while true, is rather like calling European Americans slave owners. I’m concerned with what’s going on now.

There may be a lot of non-Christians dying at the hands of fanatical Christians today but I don’t see it.[/quote]

The troubles in Northern Ireland wasn’t all that long ago.

Jihad is certainly a problem. How fucking warped must someone be to believe in this shit?

Derek,

[quote]Just the titles alone make me smile. I’ll admit that I did not do an exhaustive search for an opposing view as you did.

This may be the very thing that’ll make me eat my words.

Thanks for those links. I will read them and most likely change my opinions from above.

Thanks again![/quote]

You’re welcome. I’m sure that there is more, if you really look.

I agree with you by the way, that this is not enough. It never is. But I would argue that demonstrations are symbolic gestures that often don’t yield the desired result. If you’re living in an authoritarian society - what many middle-eastern and predominantly muslim countries are - you might not even get that right. Also, organized religion has unfortunately often had the role of keeping people in line with the state’s rules (absolutism anyone?); or it has been deliberately used - as theocratic governments tend to.

What makes me hope are the sites that portray women’s groups, and that use islamic law and scripture to question the motives and methods of the islamistic bullies. Don’t be hard on ordinary people - they rather tend to stay home (in any society); it’s in most cases the bullies that go out and shout slogans.

Makkun

[quote]Shoebolt wrote:

Your close to it. The main problem is that these atrocities are ccommited under the banner of Islam, although the reasons have more to do with nationalism, pride and politics. With mistranslations and verses and ideas taken out of context or not studied well enough (most of these sick terrorists and supporters are uneducated, bigoted or nationalistic), you can justify anything.

[/quote]

actually most terrorists are well educated. also, though I recognize that Islam can be and often is peaceful the fact of the matter is that most terrorists are religiously motivated (though the Israeli-Palestine issue is mostly nationalistic). In Islam nationalism, politics and religion are pretty much convergent as Islam, I believe, in essence is a “political” religion where political and religious aims coincide. However, I do agree with pride being a major factor that could ive rise to radical thought and possible misinterpretations of the qu’ran.

[quote]olderguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Just because a few people promote religion in a negative light, you can’t base the whole religion off of this. There are not that many people in the protest compared to the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

Islam is a peaceful religion, so you can’t let a few people be the basis of an entire religion. Every religion has good and bad.

To tmoney and shoebolt,
I am not knocking all of Islam and am aware that there are a lot of Muslims that would like to live in peace and have no part in the radical aspects. But please don’t try and say it’s only a “few”. A small percentage of 1.5 bil
is more than a few.

If you aren’t saying the video is over the top, then you would have to say they could make the world a very dangerous place. Even a small percentage of them.

Again, I know what I think and I think the world is in trouble.

We aren’t talking about the KKK here. [/quote]

I hear you man. The video is more disturbing for me than it is for you, because I realise how sickeningly misguided those people are.

And yes, we have a serious problem on our hands. The bigger danger is that due to American foreign policy combined with Saudi influence, this attitude is spreading, and it will continue to spread until Muslims leaders open the doors to culture, learning, education and tolerance the way caliphs back in the medieval Islamic world did so many years ago.

I’m more scared than you man, firstly because as an educated Muslim if I speak the truth I will be attacked by rabid crowds such as this. Secondly, the backlash against Muslims and Islam feels too familiar to the anti-Semitism preceding the Holocaust.You already have enough people on THIS board touting lines such as kill the muslims, or convert them all, or Islam is a religion of hate and war.

…Total bigotry and lack of understanding and knowledge.

[quote]Hanzo wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:

Your close to it. The main problem is that these atrocities are ccommited under the banner of Islam, although the reasons have more to do with nationalism, pride and politics. With mistranslations and verses and ideas taken out of context or not studied well enough (most of these sick terrorists and supporters are uneducated, bigoted or nationalistic), you can justify anything.

actually most terrorists are well educated. also, though I recognize that Islam can be and often is peaceful the fact of the matter is that most terrorists are religiously motivated (though the Israeli-Palestine issue is mostly nationalistic). In Islam nationalism, politics and religion are pretty much convergent as Islam, I believe, in essence is a “political” religion where political and religious aims coincide. However, I do agree with pride being a major factor that could ive rise to radical thought and possible misinterpretations of the qu’ran.[/quote]

Yep, and its false pride. When you place the teachingsin Saudi culture into practice, you abhor all other forms of thought, abhor all other viewpoints, you develop an arrogance that is unparalleled.

Arrogance + pride lol = BIG SIN in ISLAM, as well as any other religion.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
olderguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Just because a few people promote religion in a negative light, you can’t base the whole religion off of this. There are not that many people in the protest compared to the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

Islam is a peaceful religion, so you can’t let a few people be the basis of an entire religion. Every religion has good and bad.

To tmoney and shoebolt,
I am not knocking all of Islam and am aware that there are a lot of Muslims that would like to live in peace and have no part in the radical aspects. But please don’t try and say it’s only a “few”. A small percentage of 1.5 bil
is more than a few.

If you aren’t saying the video is over the top, then you would have to say they could make the world a very dangerous place. Even a small percentage of them.

Again, I know what I think and I think the world is in trouble.

We aren’t talking about the KKK here.

It is only a few people. 1 percent of 1.5 billion is 150 million, and I know there are FAR less radical Muslims than that. The percentage is totally insignificant to the rest of the religion. So I think it is still an extremely small number of people.

The other 99.9% + of Muslims live in peace and do not condone or practice these acts.[/quote]

I’m with you 100% that vast majority of the Muslim faith are peace loving people. I don’t agree with your percentages. And if I were to agree, .01% of 1.5 bil is still enough to scare the crap out of me. 15 MILLION isn’t a few of anything unless you are talking about grains of sand.

Did you watch that 12 min clip, Radical Islam?

So according to your math, .01% is 15 million.

[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
olderguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Just because a few people promote religion in a negative light, you can’t base the whole religion off of this. There are not that many people in the protest compared to the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

Islam is a peaceful religion, so you can’t let a few people be the basis of an entire religion. Every religion has good and bad.

To tmoney and shoebolt,
I am not knocking all of Islam and am aware that there are a lot of Muslims that would like to live in peace and have no part in the radical aspects. But please don’t try and say it’s only a “few”. A small percentage of 1.5 bil
is more than a few.

If you aren’t saying the video is over the top, then you would have to say they could make the world a very dangerous place. Even a small percentage of them.

Again, I know what I think and I think the world is in trouble.

We aren’t talking about the KKK here.

I hear you man. The video is more disturbing for me than it is for you, because I realise how sickeningly misguided those people are.

And yes, we have a serious problem on our hands. The bigger danger is that due to American foreign policy combined with Saudi influence, this attitude is spreading, and it will continue to spread until Muslims leaders open the doors to culture, learning, education and tolerance the way caliphs back in the medieval Islamic world did so many years ago.

I’m more scared than you man, firstly because as an educated Muslim if I speak the truth I will be attacked by rabid crowds such as this. Secondly, the backlash against Muslims and Islam feels too familiar to the anti-Semitism preceding the Holocaust.You already have enough people on THIS board touting lines such as kill the muslims, or convert them all, or Islam is a religion of hate and war.

…Total bigotry and lack of understanding and knowledge.[/quote]

I like your post and agree with most of it. I don’t think there are many on this board that want to kill all muslims. I could be wrong. Just like TMoney could be wrong that it’s only a few. Who really knows what one is thinking but themselves.

Don’t think for a second that I think the US government is some wonderful entity that has the betterment of that world as it’s number one priority. The US and every other country has been sucking the blood of the oil producing nations from day one. Along the lines of “I’ll give you a bag of stones for Manhatten Island”.

The world is a better place than if that power were in the hands of Russia, China, or any number of countries. I would say if Sweden had half the economy and military of the US, they would be someone that had to be heard and dealt with.

Thanks again for the honest post. [/quote]

Just a data point. What Christians did to Muslims, 1995.

[quote]derek wrote:
Is there a doubt that the pictures are genuine?
[/quote]

Absolutely not. It’s just that from my perspective it looks as if you made up your mind that ALL Muslims were after your life, freedoms and all things you cherish.

I just wanted an insight into the websites you frequented. Hope you understand.

[quote]derek wrote:
From the Koran:

[/quote]
What was the point of these references? It never says anywhere in what you posted for Muslims to kill Christians. It says to kill unbelivers. Christians are believers. In fact, Christians worship the same Allah as Muslims and Jews.

[quote]TQB wrote:
Just a data point. What Christians did to Muslims, 1995.[/quote]

Good enough for a generalization.

[quote]olderguy wrote:
What would the world think of us if we broadcast slitting the throats of Muslims, because they are Muslims, on the 6 o’clock news?

[/quote]
Why don’t you try using some faith that Muslims might actually oppose the actions of their radical brethren like you would of radical Christians who protest soldiers funerals, etc?

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:

If you are quoting Islam’s holy book, PLEASE SPELL IT RIGHT!!!

QURAN, not Koran

Thank you[/quote]

Why?

It has been spelled Koran in English for centuries, hasn’t it?

Isn’t it also spelled Q’uran?

Since English uses a different letter system I don’t see why one would be right and one would be wrong.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
What was the point of these references? It never says anywhere in what you posted for Muslims to kill Christians. It says to kill unbelivers. Christians are believers. In fact, Christians worship the same Allah as Muslims and Jews.[/quote]

Yes. Because its those damn unbelievers that can raise questions about the morality of the Churcu’s actions. Damn unbelievers. Hew dare they not follow the rules and think for themselves?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
derek wrote:
Experiment;

Allow a Muslim to build and advertise a new mosque in say, Baltimore. See what happens.

Allow a Christian to build and advertise a church in a Mulim country. See what happens.

This is a faulty experiment. Your control is in a secular State, but I’ll bite:

Let’s try to build the mosque accross the street from The Holy Sepulchre Sacred Heart Pentcostal Brotherhood Church off the Route 11 frontage road in Alabaster, AL. Do you think the vote to allow a new buiilding in the township will get past the bible-bangers on the township league?

You forget that there are many Christian churches already in the ME. Muslims do not hate Christians–they mostly hate America’s foreign policy concerning Isreal and those that align themselves with it. You are comparing apples to oranges here.[/quote]

The township doesn’t prohibit the building of the mosque via ordinanace. It may bend to the will of the citizens who choose not to allow another house of worship to be built. This may be overturned in court if the mosque builders sue for the right to build and overturn the planning board. Suing for a variance is common all over the US.

In Saudi Arabia the building of a church is prohibited by law as is the posession of a bible. The penalties are not fines, they are imprisonment or death. SA is generally recognized as the home and founding place of Islam.

The Police in Alabama would investigate threats or damage to a mosque if one were built. The government would not organize rallies to burn it down or allow them to occur.

[quote]hedo wrote:
The Police in Alabama would investigate threats or damage to a mosque if one were built. The government would not organize rallies to burn it down or allow them to occur.

[/quote]
Again though, we are talking about a secular democracy verses an authoritarian theocracy. We are comparing apples to oranges here. This may happen in Saudia Arabia but what about a democratic states like Turkey?

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
If you are quoting Islam’s holy book, PLEASE SPELL IT RIGHT!!!

QURAN, not Koran

Thank you[/quote]

The Holy Koran

Arabic: 'al-qur’anu l-karīm
Other spellings: Qur’an, Quran, Qor’an

THE HOLY KORAN

The holy book of Islam. Also referred to in English as “Quran”, or “Qur’an”. The latter is the correct transliteration, but in this article we use the common “Koran”.

Yeah, brilliant catch, I had NO IDEA it was spelled all kinds of ways. DO me a favor, type “koran” in Google and see how many hits you get.

I’ll save you the time…
That’d be 11,700,000. We must all be illiterate huh?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Christians are believers. In fact, Christians worship the same Allah as Muslims and Jews.[/quote]

That’s not at all what I see and hear but since you say it’s true it must be. Nevermind that this is the ONLY time that has ever been said to me or that I’ve ever read.