T Nation

Regretting PH Use


Back in march i did a 6 week cycle of Hdrol at 50/50/75/75/75/75. I did get nolvadex for my pct, unfortunately i was not sure on the mg per pill from my guy, so i dont even know how much i was taking, but i assumed they were 20mg per pill so i did 40/40/20/20. It is now almost september and I am completely regretting my decision on taking a PH only being 20 years old.

I only gained 5-6lbs the whole cycle, and now i am experiencing what seems like low libido and ED; my balls are not as big as they once were either. It is very hard for me to get an erection, and i have little to no interest in having sex. I dont even know where to start or what to do, so Thursday I am going to get labs done; getting the female hormone panel and also going to get lipids checked (is the lipids test necessary?). My fear is that i have cause permanent damage to my HPTA. Being 20 years old and in college, this is a nightmare. Everybody thinks it cant happen to them, and here I am.

Four weeks ago i did finish a 6 week cycle of P6 and Activate Xtreme, which didnt really do much. Yesterday I started taking 3g of DAA just to see if that would help. Any advise on other bloodwork to get done would be appreciated, or even maybe consider doing another PCT with nolva, and adding in clomid this time?


Because your name is CougarPride which leads me to believe you live near me and go to UofHouston, I guess I'll reply.

You don't need me to tell you that you screwed up, especially if you took the actual H-drol that gaspari used to produce rather than the Halodrol it produces now after the original methylated steroid was discontinued. You were right to use nolva.(provided that it was actually nolvadex and not nolvadex-xt or whatever that trash that I think gaspari also produces) The dosage if you were correct is also about right, but what you failed to consider and what might have helped you recently with these test booster was an AI ( aromatase inhibitor) which is pretty essential when taking anything that could potential convert to estrogen, notably a higher testosterone level.

I can't vouch for the efficacy of the last two things you took, its been my belief that anything that claims the effects of steroids and is sold at a GNC is garbage and for suckers. This may not be the case anymore. The problem with the supplement industry is that they are trying so hard to make a buck that they will throw a ton of different ingredients in the same product as soon as some 2 bit researcher puts out a paper claiming the slightest benefit, far before any actual research that could keep people safe takes place. First it was the fat-burners. The first incarnation of hydroxycut actually killed people because it contained far beyond the safe doses of ephedrine and was marketed toward fat fuckers whose hearts cant handle it to begin with. Imagine if some clown decided to make the ultimate fat burner, and combined among other things 2 herbs that have reputed fat loss capabilities: ephedra and yohimbine. Sounds like a great idea, but the combined effect of these two drugs is a heart rate that is dangerously high even for people in decent shape.

Look at the ingredients in the Cellucor P6, heres a neat one: Ovine Placenta powder. Yes thats right, you were ingesting animal placenta. The purpose of which, as I'm sure everyone undoubtedly knows (sarcasm), is to provide a source of ECG which is supposedly analogous to HCG, the hormone that steroid users use to continue testicular function during the use of hormones that suppress natural function. Sounds like a great idea, it is in fact the leading ingredient within the propietary blend, but did you know that HCG plays the role of leutinizing hormone, which is produced in the HPTA, the production of which can be suppressed by taking too much HCG? Leutinizing hormone causes the leydig cells in your testicles to produce testosterone btw.

On top of this you took 2 products, the second of which claims in the ingredients to have 'Aromatase Inhibiting Lignans'. Sounds legit, however a lignan is a phytoestrogen!! Which is an estrogen like chemical found in plants, how this aids in aromatase inhibition is beyond me, but who knows maybe it could. Estrogens do aid in weight gain however, which is why it is delivered in steer pellets along with other steroids.

So lets see they claim to provide test, pseudo-hcg, psuedo-AI, hell throw in a plant extract that acts as a SERM and you got a cycle in a bottle! With the added bonus of each ingredient effecting the individual to a varying degree!

The supplement industry is a bit under-handed in that it is marketing, to the uneducated mind you, products claim to have steroid-like prowess. They oftentimes even include in the names of the product or the proprietary blends things that sound reminiscent of steroids or associated drugs in order to dupe suckers into buying them. Furthermore, the more successful they are at accomplishing this goal, the more kids too young to be using them end up damaging themselves because they lack the knowledge to use these things safely, and the industry claims this shit is safe with little to no research to back anything up. Meanwhile, there exist droves of research on the actual steroids that are illegalized.

Anyways, in the future if you use this stuff, to be safe treat it as the steroid it claims to be. Run an AI (arimidex or equivalent) while using to block estrogen conversion, and keep Nolvadex handy to combat gyno effects as needed and to serve as a PCT. That being said, go ahead and run your pct, nolva will help kickstart you nuts if they are lagging, clomid will do the same and will help to restore HPTA production of leutinizing hormone so far as I understand it. I wouldn't fret, you will probably recover, sometimes it takes several weeks to a few months to feel normal again if you were in fact suppressed, although I would imagine what you are feeling is estrogen related.

Will this restore you? No guarantee, but it is good you got bloods on the way. (btw lipids are advisable, liver enzymes are altered by estrogens and methylated oral steroids like h-drol are tough on the liver too, this can effect lipids) Your doctor/endocrinologist will help you far more than I can.

When you play with hormones at a young age you are also gambling with the development of your endocrine system as well. If you really did damage yourself (again probably not likely) you will just require TRT (which some older folks opt to do anyway at "anti-aging" clinics). This is a testosterone shot administered periodically, but if its any consolation that shot will be a low dose legitimate steroid!


Thanks for the reply. It definitely wasn't nolvadex xt. The pills were very small, white, and tasted bitter. I'm getting my blood work done tomorrow through privateMD, so hopefully I will get the results soon. It was actually an Hdrol clone that I took called Hstane. I'm just going to see what my blood work says before I order anything. I will post my results on here and hopefully someone will be able to help me understand them and help me fix this mistake.


Im curious to see what your blood results read. Tip man. If you are gunna cycle prohormones, follow my little prohormone guide here: How to run prohormone cycle properly (for the legally concerned):

There are a variety of prohormones on the market, DHEA isomers (mild), progestins, and liver toxic. Establish which kind you plan on using. Due to the constant changing I wont bother with specific names. More is not better however. 10 vs. 11 pounds coupled with severe suppression at 11 pounds is not worth it in comparison to a 10 pound gain at mild suppression. In fact, the 10 pound gainer may keep more.

Requirements before cycling:
To run a prohormone you must legally be 18. 21 is recommended.
Train for at least 1-3 years with proper diet (1-2grams of protein per pound body weight atleast) and exercise.

Maximum cycles each year:
2 six week cycles a year or 3 four week cycles max. Length depends on prohormones. Time on+pct=time off at minimum. This is the golden rule of pro-hormones.

Picking a prohormone:
Get blood work first. Pick a mild prohormone, a single compound for first cycle. Only after can you expand to some of the others. If you use a weak compound first, the stronger one will help you more later, and you’ll know how your body reacts. I recommend waiting until 3rd cycle before “stacking”.

The do’s while on:
Lift heavier
Eat more instead of 1.2 g protein per pound bodyweight, 2g
Increase training frequency
Use free-weights
6-8 glasses of water daily

The don’ts:
Run endlessly
Drink/take drugs
Get a lack of sleep
Lift light for more reps (if on a bulk in particular)

Common cycle support supplements include:
-nac, milk thistle, ala, or liv 52 for liver
-various plants for health and antioxidants
-b vitamins
-vitamin c
-coq10-heart health
-fish oil- heart health
-vitamin d
-zinc and magnesium
L carnitine will help androgen receptors work better on cycle. Basically, cycle gains will increase.

Joint support: If joints get too bad, glucosamine chroinditon with msm
Back support: Taurine 3-5g can help for back pumps.
Sleep support: melatonin and/or GABA
Sex support (only if necessary)- various herbal test boosters and nitrous oxide boosters. Don’t take viagra or cialis.
Acne?: I recommend of course thoroughly showering and then benzyl peroxide or salicylic acid for face-wash.
Hair loss (reduce dht): saw palmetto/stinging nettle/astaxanthin/other herbs are natural options to use before and finasteride research chem will work. Rogaine for older men.
Digestion problems: Tons of fiber or fiber pills, not laxatives.
If the prohormone is a progestin use B6- prolactin problems can arise- get b6… easily accessible and combats prolactin
Note*** The b6 must be pyrodoxINE form (not pyrodoxal). 200 mg 3x day. SAMe can block prolactin. Mucuna pruriens (l-dopa, often in horny goat weed mixes) can also help block prolactin. Ginseng helps too. So can ashwagandha. So can ginkgo biloba. B6+SAMe+prolactin blocking herb is best combo. I would not super dose vitamin E.

Avoid some headache medicines because of liver toxicity.

25-50 mg dhea ED on cycle may help mood and libido and fat control.

ending cycle/starting pct (largely in case serms are bunk):
Pes erase (or product with same ingredient) 75 mg 4-6 weeks+triazole/750 mg resveratrol for estrogen/other naturally based estrogen blocker (Second half of cycle to prevent estrogen sides and first half of pct) as a bridge into pct.
Daa (second half of cycle and first half pct)
Note***LOW dose aromasin can be substituted.

Non injectable Perfect Pct (pick 2)
Nolva (tamoxifen) 20/20/10/10
Extra but highly recommended: Clomid (clomiphene) 50/50/25/25
4 weeks.
Torem 120/90/60/30
Frontload one serm with a double dose one week (not torem)

Recovery supplements:
Morning ancillaries
Vitamin d 4000 iu
Multivitamin (has vitamin a, e, k)
1-3g fish oil
Calcium 600 mg (not at same time as zinc)
Vitamin c 500 mg

Mid day ancillaries:
10 g creatine and preworkout for strength
Acquired in diet: L glutamine, protein, primary 3 bcaas for protein synthesis and testosterone recovery. Protein powder has them.

Nighttime post cycle ancillaries:
Zinc 25 mg (every day, always)
Magnesium 250 mg
(ZMA is a fine combo)
Vitamin b complex

Consider milk thistle or NAC or ALA (both not necessary). Further liver detoxification.

Avoid exogenous testosterones of any form.

Iron levels must be stable in blood but not high! Many meats and eggs have iron, as well as vegetables. No need to supplement.

Fat diet needed to recover test
Sleep needed to recover test
Sex as much as possible… Can also abstain for a week or so to cause LH spike if feeling down months later.
Stress less
No drugs or alcohol or smoking
Limit sugar and no soy
Include cardio 3-4x week and lift 5-6 times week- train hard abs 3x
Lots of water
Healthy heart, healthy liver (to lower shbg) and low body fat are key.
Make sure you get some fruit during and after pct for antioxidants.
Don’t eat out of plastic or breathe in chemical sprays.

Minimize fat gain (only if necessary):
Green tea, cla, and thermogenics for weight loss. All other metals are in multi. Calcium and fiber are important. If you are using pro-hormones, you obviously aren’t competing. Don’t use t3 or clen. If weight loss is impossible, a lack or surplus of iodine could be to blame.

Gynecomastia/estrogen/prolactin at any point:
Keep Letro in case of bad fast gyno.
Taper to 2.5 mg and then taper down and use a suicidal ai or a serm to prevent rebound at end. Do NOT fiddle with nips.
Under rare circumstances nipple discharge can occur: administer liquid prami. Liquid caber does not work. Only caber from a doc.
B6 as mentioned earlier can help.
The nipple discharge is often associated with elevated prolactin, often caused by progestins. If you cycle as this forum directs, this should not be a problem. High dose Ai’s (in particular reversible) and high dose serms are often responsible for estrogen rebounds.

Failed pct (probably 1 year after)/injection time:
Double serm doses
Use hcg (injectable) before serms if can get from doctor and if that does not work a 100 mcg triptorelin shot can be used when all testosterone clears the system.

Final notes-

  1. I never recommend 6 bromo or ATD or Formestane as an estrogen blocker in post cycle. Both can shut you down by a low conversion to testosterone. You can use them on cycle.

  2. Bioavailable testosterone matters most when tested. High estrogen, High prolactin, high shbg, low vitamin D, zinc deficiency, low calcium, stress, lack of sex for too long, testicular desensitization, alcohol and drugs, high body fat/poor heart health are all causes of low T outside of trauma to the brain or testicles. Too much blocking estrogen can seriously affect these numbers.


Here are my results:

Testosterone, Serum - 538
LH- 7.1
FSH- 4.0
Estradiol- 27.3

I have had a few inputs on my results. Someone suggested that with my LH being in normal range, but my T being on the lower side may suggest my testes are not responding to the LH being produced. Which I would think means I need HCG…? I ordered clomid and arimidex today. Clomid to help with test production, and hopefully testicular size? And the arimidex for estrogen, running .5 EOD or E3D. I wish I could get some more input on my results to see whether HCG is needed or not. It’s hard to believe with taking something as mild as HDrol I would run into so many problems. I have been taking DAA for the past week as well


[quote]CougarPride wrote:
Here are my results:

Testosterone, Serum - 538
LH- 7.1
FSH- 4.0
Estradiol- 27.3

I have had a few inputs on my results. Someone suggested that with my LH being in normal range, but my T being on the lower side may suggest my testes are not responding to the LH being produced. Which I would think means I need HCG…? I ordered clomid and arimidex today. Clomid to help with test production, and hopefully testicular size? And the arimidex for estrogen, running .5 EOD or E3D. I wish I could get some more input on my results to see whether HCG is needed or not. It’s hard to believe with taking something as mild as HDrol I would run into so many problems. I have been taking DAA for the past week as well


I’m not super knowledgeable on steroids ( never done them ) but a while back i was having issues with my testosterone levels.

anyways neither here nor there.

  1. you need to include the ranges for your results

  2. Your levels don’t look too terrible in terms of (tt, lh,and e2). Sometimes you just need to give your body time to recover.


@MennotinBlack Why do post that shit if you have never even done a fucking cycle?


You ask this all the damn time I did 3 prohormone cycles numb nuts, get bloodwork 4x year, and plan to when I’m older.