T Nation

Refeeds, what's wrong with fat?

I’ve been following the refeed discussions here fairly closely, but lately I’ve noticed some problems with the common advice presented by many of the posters.

-Whats the deal with trying to refill glycogen exactly to the limit without spilling over?
The last time I checked, a calorie from glycogen was just as hard to burn off as a calorie from fat. Unless you’re heavily into contest preparations, this shouldn’t be a big deal.

-Does glycogen replenishment matter to leptin?
I’m pretty sure the answer to this question is no. The prevailing belief is that leptin levels are boosted when glucose is pushed into fat cells. Refeeding to the point of total glycogen replenishment seems arbitrary to say the least. (and far from optimal)

-Why not higher fat refeeds? (This is the important part)
Don’t quote me on this, but I believe Berardi says that carbs+fat create a synergistic insulin response higher than that of an equivalent caloric amount of carbs alone. Now follow my logic here; The main point of a refeed (for most) is to restore leptin as much as possible. This is accomplished by raising insulin as high as possible so that glucose can be pushed into fat cells. Calories held equal, wouldn’t this be achieved most efficiently by refeeding with high GI Carbs & Fat? Knowing that for the most part we’re going to have to burn off these refeed calories in some form, isn’t this important?

Objection I can see raised: All the fat from the refeed will be stored!
Answer: All the carbs from these carb refeeds are stored! Whats the difference between storing 1000 calories as fat, and 1000 calories as glycogen? They take the same amount of effort to be burned off.

I’ve stated many times that glycogen replenishment is NOT the main reason to refeed, in fact, if this were the only benefit, I would never recommend refeeding in the first place. The purpose of refeeding is to restore fallen leptin levels to baseline levels (or higher) to ensure continual fat loss.

A slight spill-over to fat storage probably isn’t a bad thing at all. Should that happen, you can be sure that your body is aware that you are not starving. I’d rather slightly overeat than undereat. The calculations that I give are from a leptin replenishment standpoint, not a glycogen replenishment one. I could care less how many carbs you have been taking in throughout the week, how depleted you are, etc. That’s not important when talking about replenishing fallen leptin levels.

Besides, you wont completely refill glycogen stores in a single day or even 36 hours, so trying to do so is moot.

Next, including higher amounts of fat in a refeed is an indvidual thing. I have individuals who do better with all out binges than controlled carb refeeds (from a fat loss perspective). Then you have individuals who if they were to consume large amounts of C + F together for an entire day, they’d reverse all the progress they made prior to the refeed. This certainly isn’t optimal.

And yes, it takes the same amount of energy to burn 1000 cals of glycogen as it does 1000 cals of fat; however, I’m sure that you are aware that a calorie is not a calorie. Combining 1000 cals of C + F could potentially lead to miserable fat gain for certain individuals, certainly more than the .29 lbs that the numbers suggest. Trying to explain human physiology through mathematics will leave you confused, at best.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again; the strategy that you choose for refeeding should be based on what you know about your body and how your body has responded to “cheating” in the past.

Joel

“Whats [sic] the difference between storing 1000 calories as fat, and 1000 calories as glycogen?”

Fat does not improve performance, muscle glycogen does. In fact, higher body fat percentages are associated with decreases in VO2 max. Increased VO2 max is associated with an increased TEF, so the fatter you are, the more likely you are to store fat on future feeding.

Also, fat does not have the same positive effect on leptin that carbs and protein do.

Joel can go more in-depth on this one…

Eric brings up some nice points as well regarding performance and glycogen vs. fat.

Also, I think it has been mistakingly reported that it’s insulin that drives up leptin levels. I’ve never read this in all the research I’ve done. Actually, I’ve read the opposite; here’s a quote from one study:

“These results suggest that the pattern and amount of leptin secretion may be altered by high GI CHO or the simple sugar content of the diet, unrelated to differences in insulin concentration…”

Also, there are numerous other studies that have shown fat alone to have no benefit on leptin levels, while carbs certainly do, preferably high GI carbs.

But since you were talking about the combination, I’ll address that issue as well. In the above study, two dietary fat intakes were analyzed as well as the type of carbs consumed, and they didn’t find a substantial difference between the high GI/higher fat group and the high GI/lower fat group, as far as leptin levels were concerned.

Lastly, I’ve read a lot about fat blunting an insulin response, not adding to it, but that doesn’t really matter givent the other information I’ve stated; just thought I’d throw that out there.

Joel

The point I was trying to make was that (for example) per a 5000 calorie refeed, the insulin response would be greater with a F+C meal than with a Carb meal alone. Knowing (as Joel pointed out) that it is not the insulin spikes that boost leptin, but rather, that it is the action of glucose being pushed into fat cells that increases leptin, in theory this should still be accomplished more efficiently with a C+F meal.
Of course, theory and experience don’t always agree. The study cited by Joel seems to support there was no difference in Leptin after a higher carb low-fat overfeeding than a moderate carb, moderate fat overfeeding. This doesn’t show any advantages for the C+F refeed, but it doesn’t show any disadvantages either, so why make the reccomendation?
Sure, in the short term, a C+F will make you fatter - however, in the long run (say, one week) your energy balance should not be affected. In their carb depleted states by the end of the week, both the C+F refeeders and the pure carb refeeders (provided their refeeds were calorically about the same) should be at exactly the same spot.
The big question is whether there is any advantage in the short run to storing the refeed calories as glycogen compared to as fat. Sure there is the argument of decreased performance due to low glycogen, but I don’t see that being a problem in a one week period of time unless you’re going keto and doing an insanely high volume of activity during the week.
I would love to believe a calorie is not always a calorie, and while there may perhaps be a little bit of fudge room, it doesn’t really seem to become a factor unless you’re bulking. Perhaps a constant repartitioning on a bulking cycle is beneficial, as for dieting it shouldn’t matter.
Also, knowing that leptin is boosted by ‘feeding the fat cells’ with glucose, wouldn’t a bit of denovo, a bit of fat, or a bit of fructose be a GOOD thing?

Joel- I have to say that if I do include a bit more good fats on refeeds I don’t bloat as much. I think it has to do with my body using fat for fuel a little more easily than the general population (the synergistic insulin response King was refering to). I’ve also tried to do one day refeeds and absolutely agree with you (based upon experiance) that it doesn’t work that well. A slower prolonged refeed over the course of 2-3 days minimum seems much more effective. It actually prevents more fat gain as your body really holds onto the refeed if it is one huge carb up meal.

KingProtein: Please read John Berardi’s excellent ‘Lean Eatin’ ’ article. He goes over some studies concerning relative fat gain and loss on diets with different macronutrient ratios. The gist is that, comparing diets or meals of different composition, the calorie math isn’t comprable.

If you could selectively choose where you wanted to store the kcals from fat, then you have a very valid point.

Just as carbohydrate is stored in the muscle as glycogen, triglyceride is stored in the muscle as intramuscular triglyceride (IMTGs).

As a matter of fact, while a 70kg male stores about 1,500-2000 kcals in the muscle in the form of glycogen (i.e. 350-500g), this same individual will store 2,000-3,000 kcals in the form of IMTGs (i.e. 225-325g).

IMTGs are in fact a major substrate during exercise. They can become depleted similarly to muscle glycogen. Therefore, this source of substrate is important for performance.

However, Da Joel is the expert on the refeed, so I cannot make recommendations as such. My point was just to elaborate on the fact that dietary fat has another fate besides adipose tissue (i.e. IMTG) and can be an important source of substrate during exercise.

Joel would you happen to have any figures about how many more calories you can burn with refeeds like a day after the refeed because of the increase in leptin? How much will your metabolism raise after a significant carb refeed of 8 hours? Do you have any studies done on this that would have figures like what i asked above?

Pugs

Pugs…I am not going to speak for Da Joel here, but I’m going to take a page from the elaborate, quality pages that he’s written on this exact topic on the days following a refeed.

J-Dog has time and again stated that one must take advantage of this elevated leptin by purposely increasing energy expenditure. Just a glimpse at the Cheater’s Diet reinforces this point. J-Money advocates doing both HIIT and moderate-intensity cardio on the day after a refeed (albeit in separate sessions). Therefore, the caloric expenditure is greatly elevated.

There has never been a study done examining something that specific and there probably wont be anytime in the near future (unless some bodybuilders become endocrinologists). However, I can give you tons of testimonials that say “I lose more fat with overfeeds than if I dont overfeed.”

There was one study done in which individuals were administered low doses of leptin on a daily basis while dieting, and metabolic markers such as thyroid output and 24-hr energy expenditure returned to normal because of this administration. Now, subjects only lost something like 2 more lbs of fat over the next two months, but I would venture to say that this was obviously because of a pretty crappy diet program, and, if I recall correctly, they weren’t reguarly exercising. People who try to “knock” the effects of leptin will exploit this data and say “if leptin was so powerful, then why did subjects only lose 2 more lbs of fat?” Well, the answer is why I just said. I’m not concerned with how much fat they lost; I could take a subject not being treated with leptin and have them lose a hell of a lot more fat than 2 lbs in 2 months with proper diet and training (no overfeeds, no leptin administration, just straight diet and training). What is important, however, is that the metabolic markers returned to normal, which is BIG news. Given proper diet and training, having normal metabolic markers while dieting is HUGE. This is why periodic overfeeding works.

Then again, there are probably other advantageous things happening with hormones both antagonistic and agonistic to leptin from an overfeed, and there may even be some positive reactions taking place totally independent of leptin. Bottom line, it works, and leptin plays a key role.

Also, you probably noticed that I shy away from the term “refeed” and try to use the term “overfeed.” It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but I’m really not. The word “refeed” implies consuming carbohydrates to restore glycogen stores; this is fine for the poliquin diet, or the anabolic diet, or whatever other program calls for a periodic “carb up.” The numbers I recommend are numbers to yield a substantial leptin response; they are not based on your carb intake, how depleted you are, etc. I could care less about glycogen replenishment; that just happens to be a “byproduct,” if you will, of overfeeding. The purpose of overfeeding is to upregulate leptin and the various hormones and metabolic markers it affects to accelerate one’s rate of fat loss. Also, the term “carb refeed” seems to imply that you are just upping your carbs for a particular day; with overfeeding, the object is high calories, high carbs, high GI carbs.

Lastly, if you need a more controlled approach; P + C is def the way to go. I’m going to stop here, although I could point out a few studies in which individuals were consuming hypocaloric diets and were still gaining fat mass to prove that a calorie is not a calorie (the one I am thinking of is also mentioned in a Berardi article, may be lean eating), so no, it’s not only an issue with bulking.

Joel

Something of interest:

“A study published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism investigated the response of leptin to changes in insulin levels [13]. When subjects were injected with glucose (a sugar that raises insulin levels), leptin levels were shown to increase. Individuals with hyperinsulinemia (hyperinsulinemia refers to a long-term elevation in plasma insulin) also exhibit elevated leptin concentrations [19]. The response of leptin to insulin is also dose-dependent. In other words, the higher the rise in insulin, the greater the rise in leptin [2].” [from thefactsaboutfitness.com]

  1. Sonnenberg, G.E., Krakower, G.R., Hoffmann, R.G., Maas, D.L., Hennes, M.M., & Kissebah, A.H. (2001). Plasma leptin concentrations during extended fasting and graded glucose infusions: relationships with changes in glucose, insulin, and FFA. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 86, 4895-4900

  2. Zavaroni, I., Gasparini, P., Barilli, A.I., Massironi, P., Campanini, C., Carantoni, M., Delsignore, R., & Reaven, G.M. (2000). Comparison of fasting plasma leptin concentrations in healthy subjects with high and low plasma insulin. Metabolism, 49, 499-502

  3. Boden, G., Chen, X., Kolaczynski, J.W., & Polansky, M. (1997). Effects of prolonged hyperinsulinemia on serum leptin in normal human subjects. Journal of Clinical Investigation, 100, 1107-1113

quantum: How do they know that leptin levels rose in response to leptin, and not to glucose?
Interesting nonetheless. The proposed mechanism for leptin increases is when glucose is pushed into adipocytes. However, be it caused either from insulin or glucose, doesn’t it make more sense that glucose would have an easier time ‘finding’ the fat cells if insulin levels were raised maximally by a protein+carb+fat meal? As Berardi has pointed out, and as the evidence seems to show (point me to where I can be corrected if I’m wrong) but Carbs alone have a lower II than GI. Carbs and Fat combined have a higher II than GI. (Just as Carbs + Protein have a higher II than GI) And meals of all 3 macronutrients have the highest II.

I understand everyone rumbling about a calorie is not a calorie, but there are reasons why not all calories are created equal, it’s not the result of some metabolic oddity or loophole. Mainly, muscle growth and repair is what disrupts the calorie/energy balance. Hormones and so forth can affect this to some degree too I suppose. I understand that lower GI carbs and slower releasing proteins spare muscle better, (or perhaps build muscle with less fat gain when hypercaloric). But if you’re overfeeding and just pumping the calories through your body and storing them with great rapidity, there shouldn’t be any reason for a carb calorie to be any different from a fat calorie. And once they’re stored as either fat or glycogen… they’re just stored calories. The body doesn’t use glycogen any more efficiently or inefficiently than fat. Once stored, a calorie really is just a calorie. (The body uses some sources preferentially over others, but thats about it). I’ve not read Berardi or anyone else dispute this.

Thus, if leptin is raised similarily with carbs as with carbs+fat, why does it matter what we overfeed with so long as we’re consuming plenty of high GI carbs and Insulin?

Thanks for all of the info fellas, I really appreciate it…Joel, How many calories should I shoot for on an overfeed day, if i do it twice a week. I have been carb refeeding twice a week with Hot-rox w/excellant results. Heres what Im doing right now with excellant results, would you be able to evaluate it and tell me where or what I should change in this approach.

Starting weight: 259 at 30.8% bf
Three weeks later now: 242-4 at 27.8%

I have been consistently losing 1-1.5 bf% a week since I have started. The first week I lost 9 pounds with Bf% unchanged, mostly water is my geuss. But the second week my Bf% went down two points and I lost a few pounds of weight! Now the thirdweek on Hot-rox and this type oF dieting I have gone down another 1% and down about 3 pounds on the scale.

Heres the Plan I have been using since day 8 and it’s now day 22 or 23 for me I think. I have had my bmr tested as well as energy exp for cardio and lifting as part of a requirement for my Exercise Phys class. After I figured out my total cals for the day including lifestyle but not activities, it came out to about 2500 cals a day. I have been doing lifting 3 times a week (Cs Frequent and furious program, BTW excellant program for strength ,I love it) and cardio 30 mins three times a week. In the testing My cardio cals burned was 323/30 mins at 75%HR, and my Weight training cals was 229/30 mins of moderate intensity ,short rest DB squats. But since I am doing longer rest intervals with this program My geuss is that Im burning about half of that in a half an hour since less TOT and longer rests. My workouts take close to two hours(Lots of sets, PHEW!) with 3-5 min rests so thats about 400 cals I assume I Burn.

My calorie intake has been as follows, I have two low cal days 1600-1800(usually closer to 1800) with lower fats usually about 50/day(since too calorically dense and I need the sparse Cal openings to go into protein intake, since soo low cals), I usualy get 230 or so grams of protein a day and 115-140 grams of carbs a day.

Anyways I have two low cal days, like above, And one maintenance, calorie day (which is a massive carb refeed). So I have two days between 1600-1800 cals, and one day where I consume around my maintenance cals or maybe a bit above, And I use all those extra cals towards carbs ,like today my cals were 2481, my carbs were 337(spread over three meals), My fat was 58(I know needs to be lower to get more protein but kinda hard with cafeteria food)and my protein was 117(since carbs took up alot of the cals I could use here). My carb sources have been rice, sushi, bread etc on my carb up days.

But the lower calorie days plus activities give me a nice big calorie defecit for the week, and my body seems to be holding onto the muscle well(may be Hot-rox)and dropping fat likes it’s no ones business.

Id like to know your opinion on what I could change to make this better, and how I could make this more of an overfeed,( although im kinda calorie phobic though in terms of having an overfeed take a big hunk out of my calorie deficit that I have had every week doing it this way).

This approach has been by far the best approach and results ive had of any food plan(taking into consideration that I have been losing 1% a week!, and still holding onto muscle very nicely), but If you think I could make it better by having two overfeeds a week instead of two REfeeds then by all means tell me the way and means and im all up to giving it a try and see if it yields faster fat loss than now(which would be awesome btw, Im really stoked that i’m even losing fat this fast as it is and holding onto muscle, but if I could improve it why not,you have to squeeze every once of potential you can out of a plan, to accomplish the best results achieveable.)

Thanks everyone for the quick and good answers!

Pugs

I just had to add this in for Joel. First off- thank you for bestowing your knowledge upon the T-Nation. Your insight and experiance has benefited many of us beyond even what you may comprehend. I’ve just been watching, listening, observing- since I know little about “overfeeding”. I usually don’t even have good questions to ask since I’m in the dark on this subject… until recently (thanks to you). I wanted to let you know how your advice has benefited me: last week I did my first big “overfeed” with quality sources and for what seems to have been a sufficient amount of time. I gained nearly 4 lbs in water/fat/glycogen. I was very put off by this and thought I had done it wrong. I went back to hypocaloric/low carb for 4 days and lost nearly 7 total lbs!!! That is amazing considering I’m between 6-7% BF now! Today I did another refeed and am looking forward to even greater results since I selected even better sources than last time. I expect less total gain with greater total loss. You’ve been at this game a while. I bet these kinds of results don’t surprise you. But, you should be proud for passing this on! Thanks again! And thanks to everyone else including Tampa Terry & Timbo. You know, all of you are going to be badgered for advice from now until the end of time!

Just wanted to get in on this discussion, as it overlaps with what was discussed on a previous Doggy Pound Thread.

First off, Joel, you and I both agree that the terms CHO load, refeed, and overfeed have different meanings. I agree, one is only going to replenish muscle glycogen, the other is going to upregulate leptin for continued dieting, hence, my comment that refeeds are much more “loose” than cho loads.

On the issue of insulin, CHO, and the letpin response, the fundamental question for refeeds/overfeeds is: does lipogenic activity through the combination of acute hyperinsuliminia, and carb and fat excess energy have to predominate for leptin to be upregulated? In other words, what is the feedback loop for the leptin response.

Since leptin’s primary correlation is with subcutaneous body fat (followed by energy balance), one might suggest that in order to “tweek” the leptin response, adipose tissue has to be agitated. Thus, the whole point of a refeed/overfeed is to stimulate the adipose tissue.

However, insulin by itself does have some effect on circulating leptin levels, perhaps without agitating adipose tissue…“Since insulin responses to energy intake precede changes in circulating leptin, insulin is a good candidate hormone to act as a regulator of changes in leptin secretion resulting from alterations in energy intake” (Havel, 2000)…Furthermore (and most pertinent to our discussion) "Recent energy intake also has a major influence on plasma leptin levels. Plasma leptin decreases acutely during fasting or energy restriction, whereas refeeding and overfeeding acutely increase leptin. *These changes are disproportionate to the relatively small changes in body fat induced by these short-term interventions (Dubuc et al., 1998; Wisse et al., 1999).

Thus, as we can see, lipogenic properties need possibly not predominate for a refeed/overfeed to be effective, although one might assume the more they are dominant, the better the leptin response.

In any event, refeeds/overfeeds can be a bit “messy” compared to CHO loads as it is assumed that one will resume strict dieting following a refeed…this is not necessarily the case following a CHO load.

Also, the point the initial poster made regarding glycogen and fat being calories and all calories not being the same…glycogen, once stored in the body (muscle tissue etc.) is not available for usage but for those structures in the body…thus, low level cardio (or any cardio) would promote fat burn following a refeed once liver glycogen is emptied as muscle glycogen can not be used for the cardiovascular portion…Thus, I have always advocated a more “pure” approach to refeeds and Loads. One can still get very lipogenic on a clean refeed if they eat plenty of carbs such that de novo occurs (1000+) (stimulation of adipose cells and anti-lipolytic action will activate long before de novo)…one might suggest that eating this many carbs is tough?..well, if you are truly bingeing, following a sustained period of energy deficit, it can be very easy to do as some of us know. While it is true that a CHO+FAT, or CHO+PRO or all three hybrid can increase insulin responses (in some cases decrease it), one can do very well jacking their insulin through carbs alone. IMHO, save the fat for the resumption of the keto-style diet days, after a washout period of 24-36 hrs, thus not comprising insulin sensitivity due to the change over in metabolic fuels.

I think the distinction made here is very important…and to be honest, I think that one “accident” of the original “anabolic diet” or “CKD” is that people ate too much on their CHO loads, which then stimulated leptin and accelerated fat loss, thus providing the mirage that this style of diet (glycogen replacement) allowed for more optimal training which then accelerated fat loss…People did not know about leptin then, and hell, we are still learning about it now.

Vain.

Just a few further comments I feel compelled to make regarding the issue of refeeds etc.

First off,
Circulating leptin concentrations are highly correlated with existing adipose tissue mass in both human and animal subjects (Maffei et al., 1996; Havel et al., 1996). They are also obviously correlated with recent energy intake as discussed in the above thread.

In training my clients and in offering advice, I have taken a more moderate approach to the frequency of refeeds. The more bf% you have, the less frequent your refeeds will need to be, due to the contribution of extant adipose tissue mass to plasma leptin levels. In addition, even in the face of severe dieting, such as fat fast, keto, etc. with diet calories set in the 1500-1800-2000 range, metabolic downregulation will take some time to occur (as evidenced in the infamous Minnesota studies I refer to so often)…in those studies, it was two + weeks at this level of starvation that resulted in approximately a 24% reduction in metabolic activity, primarily due to loss of celluar tissue associated with dieting…thus, lets say someone’s maintenance is 3000 calories…24% of 3,000 would be 720, thus a new rate of approximately 2300calories per day (24% was the upper end of metabolic decline). Thus one can see that a new rate of 2300 allows still significant room for negative energy balance with diet calories set at 1800-2000calories (with additional cardio)

Yes, plasma leptin does decrease with acute fasting, and will go significantly down during a period of semi-starvation noted above, however, at higher body fat’s, your extant adipose tissue mass will be larger, thus the contribution to plasma leptin levels irregardless of recent energy intake.

I am on target with the fact that the role of insulin during refeeds is mediated by glucose utilization. Thus, in the absence of insulin, leptin could be upregulated by CHO alone if that CHO could be utilized and metabolized by adipose tissue…similarily, even with hyperinsulinimia, leptin is not upregulated unless adipose cells can utlize glucose. One mediates the other (adipose cells could utlized glucose through glucogenesis, although this process is much more inefficient).

Finally, somebody mentioned workout routines on the day of a refeed. My advice NONE.
“The uptake of glucose does not increase leptin production if the glucose is metabolized anaerobically and released as lactate. Accordingly, leptin secretion is inversely related to the proportion of glucose metabolized to lactate” (Havel, 2000).

Sit down, refeed, and be a glutton.
Save the workouts for diet days.

Vain

Very good posts Vain, one thing i noticed that you posted about people with higher BF have higher leptin levels and need less frequent refeeds, while the first part is very true, I wouldnt be so quick to say that the latter statement on refeeds is gonna correlate directly with the fact that they already have higher leptin levels.
You have to take into consideration while these people with higher bf and leptin levels, then why do they still eat alot more (why are they still hungry) and still gain weight even though they still have huge levels of leptin circulating , that leptin doesnt act this way becuase their levels are elevated soo high for soo long because of there high bodyfat. One of the theorie floating around is that their body becomes numb to leptin changes and no longer respond to leptin like a normal body does(adaptation mechanism), just like everything else you body will adapt to these levels of high leptin and the body will no longer respond the way a normal body should.

The point I am trying to make is that just cause these people have high bodyfat doesnt mean that those high leptin levels are going to act like a normal body would with leptin response…, So I think assuming that the body of a person with high bodyfat %, will put those high leptin levels to use or that the high leptin levels will do anything to or for their body is a bad assumption. Since Million of americans still have high leptins levels but the leptin response is numbed and blunted since the body is used to these high levels, kinda of like what happens with type 2 diabetes, only interms of and talking about leptin response.

Take this post as you will, but just consider that high leptins levels of people with high Bf doesnt mean anything if the person has a numbed or severly downsized response to carbs and leptin levels.
Take this as you will just take this into consideration when you say that a person with high BF needs less frequent refeeds cause they have higher leptin levels, when this isnt always necessarily gonna be the case and with alot of people with higher BF the numbed response may be exactly what is happening to themm.

Pugs

Very good posts Vain, one thing i noticed that you posted about people with higher BF have higher leptin levels and need less frequent refeeds, while the first part is very true, I wouldnt be so quick to say that the latter statement on refeeds is gonna correlate directly with the fact that they already have higher leptin levels.
You have to take into consideration while these people with higher bf and leptin levels, then why do they still eat alot more (why are they still hungry) and still gain weight even though they still have huge levels of leptin circulating , that leptin doesnt act this way becuase their levels are elevated soo high for soo long because of there high bodyfat. One of the theorie floating around is that their body becomes numb to leptin changes and no longer respond to leptin like a normal body does(adaptation mechanism), just like everything else you body will adapt to these levels of high leptin and the body will no longer respond the way a normal body should.

The point I am trying to make is that just cause these people have high bodyfat doesnt mean that those high leptin levels are going to act like a normal body would with leptin response…, So I think assuming that the body of a person with high bodyfat %, will put those high leptin levels to use or that the high leptin levels will do anything to or for their body is a bad assumption. Since Million of americans still have high leptins levels but the leptin response is numbed and blunted since the body is used to these high levels, kinda of like what happens with type 2 diabetes, only interms of and talking about leptin response.

Take this post as you will, but just consider that high leptins levels of people with high Bf doesnt mean anything if the person has a numbed or severly downsized response to carbs and leptin levels.
Take this as you will just take this into consideration when you say that a person with high BF needs less frequent refeeds cause they have higher leptin levels, when this isnt always necessarily gonna be the case and with alot of people with higher BF the numbed response may be exactly what is happening to themm.

Pugs

Pugs
true true, but this situation is mainly confined to obese people…indeed, leptin insensitivity is a major player while people become obese in the first place (or maintain obeseity)

I doubt that too many of us that train come into a situation obese, or with serious leptin resistance…however, you make a very valid point when dealing with clients who are indeed severely overweight-to-obese

Peace
Vain