T Nation

Recovering from Propecia. Need Some Help


#1

Basically I took propecia and crashed, I tried thousand of things to recover and nothing gave me results besides tribulus, clomid and tamoxifen.

My recent levels without doing serms and tribulus was

T: 280
E2: 36
Lh: 2
Fsh: 1.8
TSH: 2.0
Prolactin: 4

I was doing well until I started gym and eating a lot of oats (my cholesterol dropped a lot) I felt a mini crash But I already recover to where j was before the cholesterol drop (eating a lot of eggs and bacon). One thing I noticed, as soon as I started doing gym, my supplements/herbs stopped working and I didn’t improve anymore, then I tested stopping gym for 15 days and take them again (clomid 25mg) everything worked again, now I started gym again and they are no longer working, it’s like taking a pill that doesn’t do anything. My diet is fine, I’m not drinking even a drop of alcohol for a long time. Do you think I should stop doing gym to let my body recover? I was doing really intense training and getting good results, but supplements stopped working and no improvements in libido or in pfs in general,as soon as I stopped they worked again (sorry to sound repetitive but do you guys think it’s cortisol related?)

Basically I want to make serms work again, do you guys suggest to stop doing gym? Is it a cortisol problem that makes Hpta stop working from the stimulation that we get from serms?

Last question: Is there anything I can do to stimulate even more the leydig cells, like make them work better with clomid.

Btw: My dosage was 12.5mg-25mg clomid. Or 5-10mg of tamoxifen (never taken together because it’s too strong for me and I feel some low e sides even joint pain) also I don’t mix serms to AIs because it kills my E and I get panick attack. I was taking once a week and getting incredible results.

Ps: I read many recoveries from post finasteride syndrome and all of them said the recovery comes with ups and downs giving a better baseline, and that’s exactly what I felt on tribulus, clomid or tamoxifen. Is there any way to avoid the estrogen increase from serms (because I think the rebound get me worse, but with a better baseline comparing to before taking it) I can’t take any AI even very low dosage once every 14 days, like less than 0.25mg of Arimidex cause me panick attack and gyno feel painful.

I forgot to say that I’m also suffering from gyno, I have very puffy nipples with a lump behind them, but they are not big, I would say they are the size of a bean. Would taking tamoxifen instead of clomid be a better idea to recover (libido, energy and also gyno at the same time) instead of clomid?

Thank you so much guys. I’m so relieved that I discovered the cure. I was suffering pfs for 5y + but I just need to adjust a little things, I hope you guys can help me.


#2

It would help if you had E2 lab work from when you were taking Arimidex/anastrozole.

TSH should be closer to 1.0, please ignore thyroid hormone lab ranges.
Have you been using iodized salt?
Do you feel cold easily?
Low thyroid function might be part of your other problems.

Please follow these links found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys
  • things that damage your hormones

Nolvadex/tamoxifen and clomid do much the same thing.


#3

I’m very sensitive to AIs. Even clomid or tamoxifen that don’t act on aromatase made me feel low e symptoms if dosage is too high like 50, 20mg

Once I achieved 75% back to normal and I was like that for 2 months until I take progesterone cream, smoke a lot of weed and Panax ginseng (these three made me crash and stay in a worse condition, never will take them again). During this time my TSH was 1.8 or 1.4 I don’t remember, I just took tribulus and made all my symptoms improve.

The problem with tribulus is that you don’t know when it’s going to work or not. I took it high dosage for a week or 15 days and results lasted until I started doing what I listed above.

Yes, I’m living in Argentina now and it’s pretty common iodine in our salt.

I don’t feel cold. I think any thyroid problem may be from the estrogen dominance that propecia cause to people because when we block 5ar our DHT drops and T try to increase to make more dht to avoid estrogen to rise but estrogen increase and gets dominant then we crash.

Ksman, one thing I really would like to understand. When I do gym and take serms or herbs they don’t work, I don’t feel anything and my numbers don’t improve. I tried stopping gym and taking them again after 14 days and it worked again, then I started again and tried again and nothing. I thought I had a problem with my Hpta but I always responded well to serms. Why do you think this happens when I do gym?

Could you give me any advice to make my Hpta, leydig cells or anything else to be more responsive to serms stimulation and a way to avoid the estrogen rebound (it seems that all recovered propecia patients had it because they always say recovery comes with ups and downs leading to better baseline) without AIs?

Thank you so much for the help and sorry for the big text.


#4

I really don’t think there’s a connection between working out and your testosterone recovery. If SERMs are not working for you when you try to restart HPTA, then only option is TRT, which also makes a lot of other problems easier to manage. I also don’t think there’s a connection between smoking a moderate amount of weed has effect on hpta. If you respond to Serms and then LH/FSH drop back, you are not able to restart. Then the only option is either TRT or SERM indefinitely, which I wouldn’t advise.


#5

No man, you didn’t understand. The serms do work in me.

I mean, when I take serms, they work and I get stable results, I feel a drop but it’s better than before taking it (which is to be expected according to recoveries in propeciahelp, they say it’s a rollercoaster ride, waves modulating our body until cure, like it’s two-three steps ahead and one step back)

What is happening is that when I do exercise and take them I feel nothing, when I stop and take I feel them. It might be a cortisol rising from exercise I really don’t know.

I won’t do TRT, all of the recoveries they didn’t need TRT even guys with more than 40 years old didn’t need TRT and they are feeling great without taking anything not even Serms.


#6

If you had to recover without anything you would have and you wouldn’t have been here. Treatment is dependent on the person who’s suffering. You cannot compare to other people. Your levels are low. If you’re not symptomatic , well good! If you are, a SERM restart is to be given a fair try! If it works, awesome! If it doesn’t, you know what to do if you want recovery.


#7

Yeah man, it’s hard to recover from post finasteride syndrome, it’s way worse than just low T. Also TRT doesn’t work for us. There are some anecdotes about people doing way too much exercise and not improving with their previous protocol.

Im young I’m just 23y I don’t want to start TRT too soon even because I reached 75% recovered once, I mean two years ago.

What I’m asking is how can I get the best from serms I mean, what should be my diet, vitamins and minerals supplementation etc. Also I heard that vitamin E makes leydig cells more responsive to lh stimulation, what I’m asking is. How can I do the best to all of these to work the best way possible.


#8

I understand about how finastride/propecia has damaged so many people. We hear about people with such problems and the state is very poor.

But you have to understand that there are certain issues that cannot be solved by diet alone. In my opinion, young age is more of a reason to fix yourself with TRT or whatever that works, I wouldn’t want to spend my 20s and 30s still looking for a fix and to avoid TRT.

Vitamins and zinc etc are useful to a certain degree IF you’re deficient, otherwise it won’t do much. With your labs, SERM doesnt seem to be sticking. So I can’t really think of an alternative but TRT.


#9

Man, you really didn’t understand. That was my Number When I crashed, not my Numbers after SERMS. I will not start TRT, Thats not an option specially Because I could achieve 75% back to normal once, also, TRT DOES NOT WORK in pfs people.

@KSman could you please put some advices.


#10

Okay man! If those aren’t your current numbers then there’s nothing to advice on. Best of luck.


#11

I have to object to your lack of knowledge in so many things then making supid statements like that. We have helped such guys here before and restarts often fail. But there never was any discussion that TRT done right was a failure.

You say you don’t feel whatever you feel if you are training. That can be many things that could be limiting your vitality.

I think that your biggest problem now is your closed minded attitude.


#12

Man, if you check propeciahelp or solvepfs you will see thousands trying TRT in all different ways to say it didn’t do a thing to their symptoms. On the other hand, many recovered with serms and herbs like tribulus, tongkat, maca etc.

Going back to what you said about my vitality, do you think training could increase my cortisol and it makes my herbs and serms to stop working? Because when I don’t do gym for a month all my supplements start to work again.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m young and TRT is not something many would like to be doing specially when we see many guys recovering from propecia doing really well, some in their 40 saying they feel better now than when they were 20. All they do is herbs, diet and a healthy lifestyle. They don’t need herbs to live well, they just take them to improve their gym routine. Also many felt worse while doing gym when they were in the beginning of pfs, in my case I feel neutral for the good or bad.

I don’t want to sound stupid but I felt clomid working on me, my balls increase in size and my symptoms improve, my only problem is that if I take too much I feel low E symptoms and if I do exercises I don’t feel anything, so I’m trying to get help to reach the maximum benefits I could get from clomid and avoid this low E sides. @KSman


#13

@KSman I read some arcticle saying that too much stress or cortisol can block hypothalamus to release gnrh. Do you think that’s why I only respond to serms when I don’t do exercises? I’m a bit scared about screwing my HPTA because in the beginning of the year I took clomid very low dose 12.5mg and it was working, then when I started gym and took it again it didn’t, then I stopped doing gym and after 15 days it worked again, then I started doing gym again and it didn’t.

When it works I feel a big relief in my symptoms but after two weeks it decrease but it’s better than before taking and this become my new baseline, like my new recovery point. I always feel this ups and downs leading to better baseline, once I achieved 75% recovered and was stable without taking anything until I tried progesterone cream. I think it crashes me because it’s a 5ar inhibitor, weed always make me feel terrible like my T is 0.

My questions are: If my HPTA was really screwed, would I feel improvements from serms and stay better? Because this on and of thing from the gym experience made me feel a little bit desperate. Is there anything I can do besides stopping exercising too much to make my Hpta respond more to the stimulation I’m giving it with serms?


#14

I think that you have problems [ups and downs] that re not directly T related and attribute those problems incorrectly.

Males need progesterone and low levels may lead to reduced cortisol levels and supplementing progresterone levels can help improve cortisol levels. Progesterone is HPTA repressive, but less so than estrogens. So you do not want to take too much. If one is on TRT, HPTA repression becomes a none issue.


#15

@ksman If someone wants to live without TRT and it is in a crashed State, what can be done? Marijuana decrease my testosterone to very low levels I feel it right on The next day. My natural T was 560-600 after 1 year without SERMS. Then I crashed with saw palmetto, weed, progesterone and it decreased my T to 280. When I stopped doing gym and took 25mg of clomid I felt great, now I’m feeling good, still better than before taking it, I took it 2 months ago, so my T levels probably increased, but when I do gym and try to take clomid or novaldex it’s like I’m taking nothing. I don’t want to sound repetitive but I doubt my HPTA broke in just 2 months from the time I took it and it worked and also I really don’t want to be in TRT as its too expensive and in my case it won’t work so well since I’m a propecia victim, what worked for me in all these years was only serms and herbs I tried hcg and it didn’t made my balls as big as clomid does, I tried proviron and it only made me worse. There is something that serms does that these two don’t do as well or maybe it’s a receptor thing related to balancing androgens and estrogens, because serms blocking estrogens I feel better but when I take Arimidex I don’t feel better.

Basically I want help in this pathway of serms, the best way to take them, mixing with vitamins and minerals omega 3 anything to get the best effect from them.

I think my cortisol was high because I lost some weight now that I stopped gym for a week. Do you think high cortisol can interfere with serms?


#16

Hi @KSman I took clomid and it worked again, I guess this problem is related to high estrogen levels because I waited a month to take it again I felt the benefits.

One thing I would like to ask you, I took 12.5mg and I felt great, after three days I decided to take more 12.5mg (I’m a bit sensitive to serms and AIs) and then I felt some low estrogen sides, like I was going to the bathroom a lot of times, I felt very anxious, like panic attack, felt a bit depressed and my dick got limp, now I’m fine after a couple of days. So I think this 12.5mg blocked too much my estrogen receptors and made me feel like this, do you agree?

One other question is that when I feel this low estrogen sides, can I get an estrogen rebound leading me to a worse baseline to recover? I guess I should’ve waited longer to take clomid again. If I take it in low doses and less frequently I always get results and stable, but when I take too much or too often I get these sides.


#17

brazilianguy

nardil
parnate
pharmaceutical / synthetic cannabinoids
exercise (resistance/aerobic combined)

the rest i am afraid won’t do much to help you
finasteride compromises your stress system elasticity by tampering with neurotransmitter availability / metabolism

hormone won’t work to readjust this functional irregularity.
you need uplifting of your stress system (GnRH will follow along don’t bother with hormone really)

but im curious as to what you say about clomid
what exactly did it make you feel?
in what sense did it help you?
did you manage to regain size in testicles at least?


#18

Man, I’m taking just Tribulus, Maca, Tongkat and I’m doing much better. I think the best thing is to stay away from any kind of pharmaceutical pills. One other thing, don’t follow all the advices here from these guys. It’s like TRT or HRT you don’t have other options, if I was following them I would be on TRT since my first post.

I don’t recommendo clomid or tamoxifen, they didn’t work well for me, but I do recommend herbs, take cycles and after each cycle (let’s say 15 days taking them, then you take a 30 days break) you will be better than before.

My skype is joocar2

I don’t login here much, after this reply I think you will know why.


#19

Hey, if there’s something that works, post your before and after labs. I want to believe.