Realistic TRT Recomp Progress

Probably my favorite YT channel! Derek is awesome.

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Looking back at old bloods, my T:FT ratio was always best (and SHBG lowest) when Danazol was in the mix. I decided to drop it for simplicity (only wanted to be on T), longevity (long-term effects of Danazol seem unclear), and cost purposes, but considering reintroducing it — what do you think, @readalot?

Last Danazol labs (2019, at Quest):
@ 25 mg EOD with 260 T: TT 2889, FT 555 (1.9%), SHBG 72
@ 25 mg ED with 200 T: TT 1919, FT 422 (2.2%), SHBG 46

Current labs (Labcorp) with 238 T: TT 2435, FT 26.0 (1.1%), SHBG 73

I had been using a trainer for a few years. Probably since 40 I would workout in my basement 3-4 times a week. Nothing crazy. But the trainer was like age 44-46 and in a real gym. He said to me - how is the training going? I said to be perfectly honest I think I’m getting weaker. He told me not to say that out loud in the gym again. Looking back I was working out hard, which rips the muscles, but with such low free t I don’t think i was able to rebuild it. The exact opposite was i was eating up the muscle which was why i was always so sore. Being so lean I would only jog a mile or so a few times a week. I had to stop cuz my legs would get so sore it hurt to walk for the next few days. With straightening things out i jog 1-1.5 miles before i lift on leg days. I hit legs twice a week and I’m back to normal in a day. But going for an 8 minute mile I’m not killing myself and hopefully putting some blood in my legs. I need a squat rack tho. I’m able to lift heavier weights so a little safety would be nice.

Regarding body fat, i was at 10% pre test. 12% post. I think in the mirror my muscle tone was bad pre test cuz i was never building up. I think gaining the 25 pounds in 9 months was my body rebuilding from years of destruction, hard lifting and crushing the calories and carbs. Put this in perspective- i hit 200 pounds a month ago. Im at 201 now. My guess is 200 is my natural weight. My gains will be slow but more natural now. All i know is I have decent energy and I’m no where near as sore as i was.

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Thanks for sharing. This is fascinating to me. I am so sore all the time. Leg days or even walking excessively takes me a few days of recovery. I have to be very careful about how I space out workouts.

I just got my new labs, though, and my FT remains quite high at 26.0. Nonetheless, TT is astronomical at 2435 (ratio of 1.1%).

I wonder if the low ratio could be dictating soreness. Free T could be high, but its low relative value is having the same effect on me you experienced. Is that possible?

Update: new new labs are in. I made a point of hydrating for these. HGB still 16.9, HCT down to 51.1. That alleviates some concern.

Sorry for my confusion; I should’ve been clearer. Indeed, my numbers come via Labcorp LC/MS for TT and FT.

The data:
SHBG (tested in part 1/2, first week of April): 73.1 nmol/L (Ref 16.5-55.9)
Total T (tested in part 2/2, one week later): 2435.2 ng/dL (Ref 264-916)
Free T (tested in part 2): 26.0 pg/mL (Ref 9.3-26.5)

I wish I had all tested at the exact same time, but the script got botched. I assume my SHBG has not changed considerably, though – it’s stayed steady in the low-to-mid-70s lately.

I thought for the conversion from pg/mL to nd/dL, I was to move the decimal for Free T one place (becoming 260), then divide it by the Total T (2435.2), yielding a ratio of 1.1%. I’m sure I’m missing something. Using the Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator online, I also see almost 2% (1.98%), but the Free number it calculates (47.5) obviously is quite a bit higher than what I received (26.0).

I’d greatly appreciate you clearing up what I’m missing here. Your wisdom is needed!

I get what you’re saying completely. From your understanding (be it via research or anecdotes), would increasing the relative percentage make me feel better (e.g., libido, soreness)?

I’ve actually bantered with @youthful55guy on other forums! He’s a huge help. I’m going to look into their comments here. Thank you for the recommendations! As you noted, it is a difficult balance.

@readalot Sorry, I just realized I also had Albumin tested — it was 5.2.

Interesting! So my Albumin actually indicates the fT is even lower than one would expect. How odd.

It seems the “only administering a high dose of T” approach isn’t working for me. Would you agree?

I understand that pull! I have heard of high-SHBG guys trying out low-dose stanozolol (as well as oxandrolone). How bad did your lipids get?

Oof, yeah, and I’d be looking at long-term danazol, for sure. Given that I am monitoring things pretty religiously, though, it might not be a bad idea. I don’t see how things will get better unless I try something like that (or oxandrolone/stanozolol). It seems more T isn’t the answer, unless perhaps I really push it. It’s already high at 238 mg/week.

Damn, brother. I’m really sorry to hear that. It seems if you could use some oxandrolone without too negative of repercussions, that would be ideal.

So, my provider is good with reintroducing danazol or trying out oxandrolone. Which one would you recommend? I’m really unsure. Danazol comes in 25/50/75, and oxandrolone in 5/15/25/50.

If I understand correctly (reading up now on Bizarro Superman now, lol), oxandrolone should produce more GAINZ than danazol?

Fascinating stuff. I’ll get the right test next time!

I was prescribed 50 mg oxandrolone but he mentioned I could take three per week if I’d like instead of ED. What do you think? Could the inconsistency be an issue?

That’s a lot of math. You really get into this stuff! Just out of curiosity, my doc doesn’t try to chase SHBG. His recommendation is to flood the system with exogenous test. This way SHBG is inundated and can’t bind it all up. He mentioned issues (didn’t get into specifics cuz we didn’t go that route) with chasing SHBG. So, why are you guys taking extra stuff to specifically lower SHBG? It seems like you’re still experiencing problems (soreness) with high total and free t. The puzzle here is where is it coming from?

What’s your vitamin D levels? Have you had it checked? When i started my journey i was at a 5. I currently take 5000 iu a day with K2. I can’t remember where I specifically am but im at the top or slightly over the high reference range. Low vitamin D affects so many processes in the body and it can cause soreness and lethargy if very low. Btw- i paid $125 for a private blood draw to test vitamin d and zinc oxide. Insurance pays for none of this.

One of the many many docs i saw told me that my E2 was too high. She never picked up on next to zero free t. I mention this cuz my new doc also doesn’t like to target estrogen due to potential issues. Apparently low estrogen can be a huge problem for soreness and irritability. I think it leads to pain in the joints. Im thinking out loud here since i don’t recall anyone mentioning estrogen as a potential source of pain. Btw - when i was taking an AI I didn’t feel any better. My E2 was 35 at one point before AI. My new doc said stop immediately. And at my weight at that point i was a solid A-cup so no gyno or love handles.

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Ahh, the costs of taking stuff other than T - how I haven’t missed this :slight_smile: I’m thinking I might do 50 mg EOD. If I do that, do you think it would make more sense to take it on injection days or non-injection days?

Sounds like the Nichols logic. Is he your doc? He’s a smart guy and has chimed in on this thread.

I do understand this perspective, for sure, and think it would work for just about everyone. However, it seemingly isn’t working in my case. My SHBG started in the 180s (!) and won’t go any lower than 70 on T alone. I think most/all TRT docs would agree that 238 mg/week is a rather high dose, so I’m not sure how much more ‘flooding’ could be done. It seems I need that flooding and something else.

I think the real puzzle is why free T is not higher given the sky-high TT. I don’t think I should need total T to be in excess of 2000 to reach a decent free T. Furthermore, the ratio between the two is poor given my dosage.

Fair question. Though I haven’t had it tested recently, I take 9,000 per day, so I really doubt this is an issue.

Another important point. I also believe estrogen is valuable and hopped off my AI a couple years ago. Since, I haven’t worried about estrogen. My E2 was 53 on last test but has run as high as 91.

As you said, it really doesn’t seem straightforward which would be more harmful in the long term. Judgment call.

There’s also the question of which would be more beneficial in the short term. Having tried the ‘high T only’ route, I think at least experimenting with oxandrolone makes sense. I’ll probably start at 50 MG EOD (25 MG/day) and adjust based on lipids.

I ordered 12 weeks’ worth of oxandrolone. Thinking I’ll measure biomarkers at 8 weeks - that make sense to you? Also, do you think I should adjust my T dose (238 mg) at all? Thinking no, so I can isolate the effect of the Anavar.

@dextermorgan @unreal24278 I’d also love to know your guys’ thoughts on this experiment to potentially lower SHBG (thereby increasing my FT:TT ratio) and current perspective on Anavar in general. I understand it seemingly isn’t a great long-term solution, but maybe at a low dose or for a time it’ll be a beneficial addition?

Given that I won’t have bloods again until the 8-week mark, do you still think I should use the
ED free T method (which is obviously favorable), or direct RIA so there’s a 1:1 comparison?

Interesting video from Derek – he reviews how, in one study, 40 mg anavar produced as much muscle as 80 mg, though 40 was better than 20. So in the case of this drug, at least, more is not necessarily better. There is certainly a point of diminishing returns.