Realistic Expectations

[quote]paulwhite959 wrote:
I’m a beginner as well, but I don’t think your legs look particularly untrained. They’re not defined/ripped but they’re not small either. Legs have been a royal pain for me too (bench and squat are within 25-30 lbs of each other for example).

From the people that have posted pictures on this site, it seems like even people that train legs hard don’t tend to get as much definition in the thighs as they chest/arms without really trying for it. I don’t know why that is, and it’s entirely possible it’s a skewed sample. I’d be interested to know if other people have noticed this, or I’m just crazy…and if other people notice it, if there’s a reason for it? [/quote]

Legs are typically one of the last places to show real definition along with abdomen and lower back when getting ultra lean. Alot of guys on here seem to look at their abdomen to assess how lean they are (hence you’re typical beginners post, “I think i’m 12-14% body fat because I can see my top two abs”), but separation in the legs, especially upper thigh can be much more telling.

Thanks both of you. It’s good to know they don’t look untrained even if a little. But what is obvious is that they are lagging, especially compared to upperbody.

My new split:

Monday: Legs1 (Hams&Calves)
Tuesday: Chest & Biceps
Wednesday: Back & Triceps
Thursday: Legs2 (Quads, Calves and Forearms)
Friday: Shoulders & Core
Sat & Sun - Off.

This split is taking into account the lack of equipment and busy times at my commercial gym.

I have split legs up so that I can target the muscles serperately with more volume. I have good recovery (One natural advantage…score!) and so a lot of volume works well.

Let me know if there is a major blunder up there, otherwise i’ll give it a shot and see what happens. if you want a more detailed view I can post that no problem.

I forgot to add, one thing I have been a little poor with is a logging my lifts. I mean, I know what weights I did but not really the reps as such I have created a log, which I will print off and take to the gym with me.

I can then look back at the log, look at what I did last week and know whether or not I did better leaving no doubt as to my progress.

Have any of you found a log to be particularly beneficial?

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Thanks both of you. It’s good to know they don’t look untrained even if a little. But what is obvious is that they are lagging, especially compared to upperbody.

My new split:

Monday: Legs1 (Hams&Calves)
Tuesday: Chest & Biceps
Wednesday: Back & Triceps
Thursday: Legs2 (Quads, Calves and Forearms)
Friday: Shoulders & Core
Sat & Sun - Off.

This split is taking into account the lack of equipment and busy times at my commercial gym.

I have split legs up so that I can target the muscles serperately with more volume. I have good recovery (One natural advantage…score!) and so a lot of volume works well.

Let me know if there is a major blunder up there, otherwise i’ll give it a shot and see what happens. if you want a more detailed view I can post that no problem.[/quote]

The only thing that stands out is hitting biceps the day before back. That’s definitely going to poorly affect the loads you can handle on your back lifts. Easy fix: train tris after chest, and bis after back.

I have tried splitting up legs into ham and quad days and personally hated it. I tend to put up better numbers on things like stiff-leg deadlifts when my quads are pumped up, and things like hack squats when my hams are pumped up. More importantly, I connect with the opposing muscle better when the other one is filled up with blood, if that makes any sense. It’s entirely preference though.

IMHO, you’d see better overall leg growth if you do two full leg days…2 ham movements, 2 quad movements each day. A hamstring curl variation each day (maybe one day standing, one day seated). Back squats one day, front squats the other. A stiff-leg variation each day (maybe DB RDLs one and stiff-leg BB DLs the other). And a secondary quad movement each day (take your pick: leg press, hack squat, lunge, bulgarian split squat).

I picked training the antagonsit as it will be fresh for me to hit but I can see how this may negatively affect my back day. Solution: give this ago for a few weeks if I feel my back is being negated then i’ll do as you mention and flip them round.

Interesting point you make on the legs. So to go by what your saying would you:

Legs 1: Back Squats (I tend to go with a wide stance and therefore it hits my glutes/ham more)
RDL BB
Leg Press
Leg Extensions
Calves Standing
Calves Seated

Legs 2: Front Squats (unlike back squats I tend to go a bit more shoulder width and thus hit my quads more)
Bulgarian Split Squat
DB RDL
Hamstring Curls
Calves Standing
Calves Seated

Does that sound better?

Once again please don’t be offended I will probably try what I have planned and like before if I don’t see any gains or worse negative effects then I have a back up plan thanks to the above.

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
I picked training the antagonsit as it will be fresh for me to hit but I can see how this may negatively affect my back day. Solution: give this ago for a few weeks if I feel my back is being negated then i’ll do as you mention and flip them round.

Interesting point you make on the legs. So to go by what your saying would you:

Legs 1: Back Squats (I tend to go with a wide stance and therefore it hits my glutes/ham more)
RDL BB
Leg Press
Leg Extensions
Calves Standing
Calves Seated

Legs 2: Front Squats (unlike back squats I tend to go a bit more shoulder width and thus hit my quads more)
Bulgarian Split Squat
DB RDL
Hamstring Curls
Calves Standing
Calves Seated

Does that sound better?

Once again please don’t be offended I will probably try what I have planned and like before if I don’t see any gains or worse negative effects then I have a back up plan thanks to the above.

[/quote]

That looks pretty good, though I don’t see leg extensions being necessary for you at your level of development. I’ll just quote John Meadows on this one: “If your quads are small, don’t do leg extensions, period; just focus on squats, leg presses, and hack squats for overall quad development. Leg extensions can be a great tool, but if you use them in place of compound movements I would call them leg “extinctions.” Same principle applies for fancy lunges. They have their place, but not until you build a certain level of leg development.”

Honestly, I think back squats, BB RDL, and Leg press may just be enough for your first workout there. Those are 3 hard hitting compound movements and you’re hitting legs again later in the week.

I still don’t even think you should try training bis the day before back. Perhaps I was being too civil when I said it MAY affect back performance. It WILL affect it. lol. And if it doesn’t you’re not training bis hard enough, or you’re just kidding yourself and don’t realize how much you can really handle on back day.

OK…don’t shoot, i’ll rotate the arms workout. I’d be stupid not to listen to the advice given especially since I requested it.

So are you suggesting, doing those three leg exercices with calves twice a week? OR have Day 1 Compund, Day 2 Isolations…or F**k isolations? :slight_smile:

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
OK…don’t shoot, i’ll rotate the arms workout. I’d be stupid not to listen to the advice given especially since I requested it.

So are you suggesting, doing those three leg exercices with calves twice a week? OR have Day 1 Compund, Day 2 Isolations…or F**k isolations? :)[/quote]

Everything else was golden. Legs 1 and legs 2 were great. I was just giving fair warning that you shouldn’t expect much out of extensions at this stage. It’s really not a big deal if you really really like them. I’d just say focus on the other 3 lifts you mentioned. Since you are doing leg press last on day 1 you can do quite a bit to annihilate your quads if that’s what you’re after. I can also say if you were to hire john meadows tomorrow to start writing your training split, I guarantee he would not have you doing leg extensions when you have so much to gain from progressing on intensity with squats and leg press.

As far as bulgarian split squats, to reap the most benefit out of them try to keep them continous, without locking out at top and taking breathers or anything. Hammer Strength Lunges - YouTube

Idk why he calls them lunges…lol. He has his back foot elevated.

I did split squats today on 60kg and 3 sets of 8 excluding warm up and I was panting and burning…damn why didn’t add these before.

Thank you all for your advice. Hopefully in 12 weeks I will post new pics with a change.

Obviously diet is the most important thing to changing your physique. I mentioned earlier that I was going to use John Keifer Carb Backloading to now bulk up to at least 200lb. My question is since I am still in the “newbie” category…is that the right way to go?

I have posted in the Carb Backloading 2.0 forum when I was designing my meal plan and it seems I have it to point. The link below is to the thread but I have still copied my plan.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_supplements/carb_back_loading_20?id=5268138&pageNo=9

"7am Wake

8 - Kiefer Coffee (Coffee & Cream)

10 - More Coffee

1pm - 300g Chicken, Rapeseed Oil 2tbsp, Fish Oil Capsule, Peanut Butter, Lots of mixed veg.

3pm - Even more Coffee.

6pm - Workout

7pm - Whey 50g & Maltodextrin 50g

8.30pm - Clean Carbs (Cereal, white rice, potato) with some Meat

9.30pm - desert x 2, fish oil, Whey50g and Maltodextrin 50g

Thats about: Pro: 220g, Fats: 150g, Carbs: 300g "

So that means I am hitting my calories approx 3500 (2500 or a little less seemed to be my maintenance) and macros.

I guess 2 important questions are:

  1. Should I skip breakfast?
  2. Should all my carbs be post workout or spaced out through the day?

Yesterday by accident I trained much later than normal and so had a pre workout meal & carbs…my strength was through the roof (comparatively speaking lol). I like that feeling!!

Like a lot of the new guys I was into all the latest things and constantly changing everything. But when I read Professor X’s 10 post stating the same thing for all starters, I realised I maybe making the same mistake:

“Lift more and EAT MORE” - that was the gist anyway.

I don’t want to be that stubborn git who asks for advice on this site and when it’s not what they want to hear ignore it.

Good luck.

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Obviously diet is the most important thing to changing your physique. I mentioned earlier that I was going to use John Keifer Carb Backloading to now bulk up to at least 200lb. My question is since I am still in the “newbie” category…is that the right way to go?

I have posted in the Carb Backloading 2.0 forum when I was designing my meal plan and it seems I have it to point. The link below is to the thread but I have still copied my plan.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_supplements/carb_back_loading_20?id=5268138&pageNo=9

"7am Wake

8 - Kiefer Coffee (Coffee & Cream)

10 - More Coffee

1pm - 300g Chicken, Rapeseed Oil 2tbsp, Fish Oil Capsule, Peanut Butter, Lots of mixed veg.

3pm - Even more Coffee.

6pm - Workout

7pm - Whey 50g & Maltodextrin 50g

8.30pm - Clean Carbs (Cereal, white rice, potato) with some Meat

9.30pm - desert x 2, fish oil, Whey50g and Maltodextrin 50g

Thats about: Pro: 220g, Fats: 150g, Carbs: 300g "

So that means I am hitting my calories approx 3500 (2500 or a little less seemed to be my maintenance) and macros.

I guess 2 important questions are:

  1. Should I skip breakfast?
  2. Should all my carbs be post workout or spaced out through the day?

Yesterday by accident I trained much later than normal and so had a pre workout meal & carbs…my strength was through the roof (comparatively speaking lol). I like that feeling!!

Like a lot of the new guys I was into all the latest things and constantly changing everything. But when I read Professor X’s 10 post stating the same thing for all starters, I realised I maybe making the same mistake:

“Lift more and EAT MORE” - that was the gist anyway.

I don’t want to be that stubborn git who asks for advice on this site and when it’s not what they want to hear ignore it.[/quote]

If your goal is to get bigger, fasting does not seem like the right answer.

The fast is only from overnight when asleep (which would happen anyway) up to 12pm. However you do make a good point; which kind of is the reason I was asking the question.

Am I missing out on potentially a very good anabolic window for muscle gain by skipping breakfast just to limit the fat gain or is it not a big deal?

Perhaps someone who has experimented with this or has some research that could help explain either way?

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

If your goal is to get bigger, fasting does not seem like the right answer.[/quote]

Who cares? If he’s hitting his daily target for calories, he’ll gain. If he doesn’t like eating until noon, whatevs. I personally get nauseous if I try to eat within a few hours of waking up and I know a few people that way too.

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
The fast is only from overnight when asleep (which would happen anyway) up to 12pm. However you do make a good point; which kind of is the reason I was asking the question.

Am I missing out on potentially a very good anabolic window for muscle gain by skipping breakfast just to limit the fat gain or is it not a big deal?

Perhaps someone who has experimented with this or has some research that could help explain either way?[/quote]

I’ve never ate like that, but yea you are missing an oppurtinity to get another meal in. If you are gaining weight, then it doesn’t matter, keep doing what you’re doing. But if you weight gain stalls, then all you have to do is add in breakfast and it’ll get moving again.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

If your goal is to get bigger, fasting does not seem like the right answer.[/quote]

Who cares? If he’s hitting his daily target for calories, he’ll gain. If he doesn’t like eating until noon, whatevs. I personally get nauseous if I try to eat within a few hours of waking up and I know a few people that way too. [/quote]

I’m not saying it won’t work. It’s just a bit odd to go without food, if the goal is to gain weight.

Seems more like try and see how it goes…I’m OK with that and I suppose that’s a fair answer. I’ll just have to update you all in a few months time.

Cheers.

at least I’m not the only one. It’s 2-3 hours before I can eat, and by then I’m at work (though I do usually ahve some greek yogurt I stash in the office fridge, I can’t really scramble 2-3 eggs at work).

[quote]paulwhite959 wrote:

at least I’m not the only one. It’s 2-3 hours before I can eat, and by then I’m at work (though I do usually ahve some greek yogurt I stash in the office fridge, I can’t really scramble 2-3 eggs at work).[/quote]

I’ve also always been like that. Usually quite nauseous in the mornings, especially if I then drink any water. Orange Juice is fine.

Anyway, I have found that I can get down a milk + cream + raw egg + protein powder shake just fine in the morning.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

If your goal is to get bigger, fasting does not seem like the right answer.[/quote]

Who cares? If he’s hitting his daily target for calories, he’ll gain. If he doesn’t like eating until noon, whatevs. I personally get nauseous if I try to eat within a few hours of waking up and I know a few people that way too. [/quote]

I’m not saying it won’t work. It’s just a bit odd to go without food, if the goal is to gain weight.[/quote]

I hear ya. But I really think skipping breakfast for some makes it easier to get in more calories, because you have an appetite spike throughout the later part of the day. I noticed this happened to me especially when I did fasted cardio first thing in the morning. OP’s gaining at a very good rate and staying lean while doing. No reason to offset the balance he’s found.