T Nation

Real Judo Throws

Hey bros and brollettes,

I started doing Judo in september and I’m apparently a natural cause it took me less than a week to go from white to yellow. First day I showed up we randori’d (sparred) and I threw some blue and black belts. Guess this is the sport for me!
+ego boost

Anyway, I noticed some of the throws can be modified to devastate your opponent. I understand that in practice the throws are done in such a way that your opponent lands “softly” as opposed to the REAL judo way, which lands the guy on his head, shoulder or back.

From a “street” and “competitive” perspective, this isn’t ideal.

Anyone have any references, websites, etc that show how to do the ‘real’ throws?

Thanks

edit: Some of the black belts have shown me the ‘real’ throws but I just want to do some more research on it.

Ya, I find this hard to believe.

-Any actual teacher will have you rolling and rolling and rolling for at least a month before they even start you on proper throws or randori.
-The belts don’t matter for shit. They’re just colors. At least till you reach the black or brown belt. Because those typically take you about 4-6 years to get.
-If you threw a black belt within your first month with a genuine throw in an genuine randori, then that guy shouldn’t have a black belt. Really, he shouldn’t. Even if you’re a genius the sheer difference in experience should prevent you from ever getting into a position where you have the proper leverage to throw him.

There’s three big reasons why those throws don’t “hurt”-

  1. You’re doing it on a mat. The mat absorbs a good deal of impact.
  2. Ukemi, or break-fall. You and most other judokas have been taught (hopefully, that’s the point of the hours and hours of rolls and falls you do) to fall. This is the single biggest reason why you don’t get the wind knocked out of you when someone throws you.
  3. Momentum. This one should be obvious, and is the reason why all throws can become incredibly painful or just a light drop to the floor. If you put speed into your form, then the actual throw itself becomes much stronger. Do it slowly, and the guy getting thrown won’t feel it if he does his break-fall correctly.

In any case, there is no modification to make the throws weaker or stronger. They’re what they are. I don’t quite understand what you mean by the difference between “soft” and “real”. I mean, where else are you going to fall besides your side when someone performs a proper seionage on you? Where else are you going to fall besides your back or side if someone performs a proper harai ogoshi on you?

The only difference would be in the speed that the throws are performed at. Go have a proper judoka who specializes in either harai ogoshi or any of the leg sweep perform it on you, full-speed, full-blast. You will not like it. I guarantee you.

Hell, even the first throw that most people learn, the seionage, will wind and daze you if someone does it properly and at the expected speed.

Personally, I find the harai ogoshi to be incredibly painful. Probably because its difficult to predict (faster to execute than a seionage, easier to get into position for as well) and thus you can’t steel yourself/pull guard, and having your entire body 3 feet in the air and then crashing onto the ground while the other judoka has put momentum into it hurts.

Lastly, the entire point of judo is to drop the opponent. The concept, and as such the sport’s concept, is to get the guy on the ground. It doesn’t matter whether he’s dead or not at that point, because once he’s on the ground you’ll either stab him with your knife/blade that you pulled while he’s dazed, or you immediately go in for a hold if you didn’t win the match outright with the throw in a competition.

Really though, I don’t advise you ever trying a throw on some guy outside of a training mat. He’ll get hurt. Badly. Just go try and do a back-fall on some concrete. Do it with all the proper techniques you’ve been taught. The rolling and the head-tucked in and all that. Then come tell me whether you think throwing someone even with a half-assed speed will hurt him or not.

Very little of what you learn in Judo (or any grappling art) is going to be directly applicable to “real” combat. Usually it’s only the most basic, low risk, and most widely applicable. Just look at MMA and notice how little of what you see in judo competitions actually works when the opponent is not trying to grapple with you but instead can punch, elbow, knee, or kick you in the head. When you take away the rules present in MMA (like not being able to kick or knee a “downed” opponent in the head, not being able to strike an opponent in the spine/occipital area, not being able to gauge, claw, fish hook, use weapons, etc…) take the fight out of a padded, open cage/ring, add in some potentially hard/damaging furniture/curbs/parked cars/other things which might not feel so good if you fall into them, add the threat of multiple opponents, and add the fact that you aren’t going to see the fight coming from months away (element of surprise is a much bigger factor) even less than what you see in MMA is going to work.

That said, you can take something like Osoto Gari (which is a decent takedown for RMA) and make it more devastating by using a palm strike/eye attack combination to force the opponent’s head back during the takedown and literally bouncing/slamming the opponent’s head into the ground. This is potentially lethal though, so you’d better be sure that it is warranted.

Probably the practicable things you learn in judo are leg sweeps and reading movements. I wouldnt try a throw unless the other fellow throws such an obvious and wide punch that you can grab it the next time he does the same thing.

I thought JellyRoll would flock to this post he’s our (other) resident judo god

Well, some throws can be modified more easily to incorporate a kind of bodyslam; you basically drop your full bodyweight onto Uke while ending up in a nice position.
I believe beginners are not being tought this explicitly (because of safety reasons) for each and every throw, while advanced trainees do this eventually with most throws, to grant the opponent no space.

Also, depending on the club, you may learn to switch very fast into submission mode.

I imagine “street fight judo” would be all about throwing your opponent hard with you ending on top, the throws being not too complicated in terms of setup, followed by going immedietly for a not too fancy but at least painful submission.
An alternative would be practising throws that are followed by a quick get-your-ass-out-of-here sprint.

Come to think of it, that would be really shockingly realistic.
(philosophical addendum: but who really wants that? Probably among the most realistic techniques for a selfdefense course would be just ‘speedialing under stress’. Imagine an instructor shocking you with all sorts of novel and nerve-wrecking situations where you have to fumble for your cell and dial 911 or somesuch.
But noooo, a chick wants to go home and profess:
“I can go for a walkies with Fluffy in the park whenever I want now.
If Mr. Raper dares to come, he’ll taste the power of my korean nad-buster kick- oh, how I hooope he dares! And Andrew the instructor had kinda hot pecs…”
Instead of:
"Sob, it was terrible, the asshole instructor suddently had a gnarling pitbull inches from my face and screamed:
“Dial, bitch, in five seconds Imma rape your mouth!”

  • And I dropped the phone… I’m never gonna leave the house…sobsobsobsomemore"

[quote]magick wrote:
Ya, I find this hard to believe.

-Any actual teacher will have you rolling and rolling and rolling for at least a month before they even start you on proper throws or randori.
-The belts don’t matter for shit. They’re just colors. At least till you reach the black or brown belt. Because those typically take you about 4-6 years to get.
-If you threw a black belt within your first month with a genuine throw in an genuine randori, then that guy shouldn’t have a black belt. Really, he shouldn’t. Even if you’re a genius the sheer difference in experience should prevent you from ever getting into a position where you have the proper leverage to throw him.[/quote]
I’ve done wrestling before and I’m a short guy so getting under people isn’t much of a problem.

[quote]magick wrote:There’s three big reasons why those throws don’t “hurt”-

  1. You’re doing it on a mat. The mat absorbs a good deal of impact.
  2. Ukemi, or break-fall. You and most other judokas have been taught (hopefully, that’s the point of the hours and hours of rolls and falls you do) to fall. This is the single biggest reason why you don’t get the wind knocked out of you when someone throws you.
  3. Momentum. This one should be obvious, and is the reason why all throws can become incredibly painful or just a light drop to the floor. If you put speed into your form, then the actual throw itself becomes much stronger. Do it slowly, and the guy getting thrown won’t feel it if he does his break-fall correctly.[/quote]

Yes, I know this. Fairly obvious. I meant like how you have seoi nage which is very much like how a wrestler does a shoulder throw, except you grab the lapel instead of hooking his arm, and he goes right over you. I think it’s called morote seoi nage. I find it to be much more effective.

[quote]magick wrote:
Really though, I don’t advise you ever trying a throw on some guy outside of a training mat. He’ll get hurt. Badly. Just go try and do a back-fall on some concrete. Do it with all the proper techniques you’ve been taught. The rolling and the head-tucked in and all that. Then come tell me whether you think throwing someone even with a half-assed speed will hurt him or not.[/quote]

Thanks, captain obvious.

Schwarzfahrer,

That is perhaps the most vulgar and animated post I have ever seen from you. Are you feeling alright? Not that I dislike vulgar. Not in the least.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Well, some throws can be modified more easily to incorporate a kind of bodyslam; you basically drop your full bodyweight onto Uke while ending up in a nice position.
I believe beginners are not being tought this explicitly (because of safety reasons) for each and every throw, while advanced trainees do this eventually with most throws, to grant the opponent no space.

Also, depending on the club, you may learn to switch very fast into submission mode.

I imagine “street fight judo” would be all about throwing your opponent hard with you ending on top, the throws being not too complicated in terms of setup, followed by going immedietly for a not too fancy but at least painful submission.
[/quote]

For my money there are two primary rules of “how to go to the ground in a fight with no ref and likely on pavement”.

1.) Try to be on top.

2.) Your hard parts go in their soft parts.

Oddly enough these are also rules for drunken hotel sex.

Really though, I am not trying to misrepresent myself as an authority on Judo or Judo techniques. So if someone who is disaggrees with me they should be listened to. However, the above should be taken as GOSPEL with respect to drunken hotel sex.

My two flippant responses to this example are:

“When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.”
and
“I only carry a gun because I can’t fit a cop in my front pocket.”

Not out of any macho “I don’t dial 911” bullshit. Simply an appreciation that in immediate emergencies I will likely need to problem solve with mobility and/or violence before I can get on the phone.

Final note: It is about side abs. Not pecs. I thought this was settled science?

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Schwarzfahrer,

That is perhaps the most vulgar and animated post I have ever seen from you. Are you feeling alright? Not that I dislike vulgar. Not in the least.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Well, some throws can be modified more easily to incorporate a kind of bodyslam; you basically drop your full bodyweight onto Uke while ending up in a nice position.
I believe beginners are not being tought this explicitly (because of safety reasons) for each and every throw, while advanced trainees do this eventually with most throws, to grant the opponent no space.

Also, depending on the club, you may learn to switch very fast into submission mode.

I imagine “street fight judo” would be all about throwing your opponent hard with you ending on top, the throws being not too complicated in terms of setup, followed by going immedietly for a not too fancy but at least painful submission.
[/quote]

For my money there are two primary rules of “how to go to the ground in a fight with no ref and likely on pavement”.

1.) Try to be on top.

2.) Your hard parts go in their soft parts.

Oddly enough these are also rules for drunken hotel sex.

Really though, I am not trying to misrepresent myself as an authority on Judo or Judo techniques. So if someone who is disaggrees with me they should be listened to. However, the above should be taken as GOSPEL with respect to drunken hotel sex.

My two flippant responses to this example are:

“When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.”
and
“I only carry a gun because I can’t fit a cop in my front pocket.”

Not out of any macho “I don’t dial 911” bullshit. Simply an appreciation that in immediate emergencies I will likely need to problem solve with mobility and/or violence before I can get on the phone.

Final note: It is about side abs. Not pecs. I thought this was settled science?

Regards,

Robert A
[/quote]

Actually, I highly recommend “speed dialing under stress”. Grossman touches on this in “On Combat”. Deterioration of fine motor skills under survival stress conditions, be it a getting into or witnessing at close a proximity violent encounter, fire or other crisis can make dialing extremely difficult.

I also recommend drunken hotel sex, and concur with Robert A’s protocols, as usual. With the added caveat to stay safe.

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Yes, I know this. Fairly obvious. I meant like how you have seoi nage which is very much like how a wrestler does a shoulder throw, except you grab the lapel instead of hooking his arm, and he goes right over you. I think it’s called morote seoi nage. I find it to be much more effective.[/quote]

Thing is, morote seoinage is incredibly difficult to on anyone who is not wearing any sort of thick clothing. It could be a more devastating throw, sure. The grip gives you considerably better leverage, on the virtue that you’re literally lifting your opponent of the ground, or on their toes if they’re much taller than you. But, if you want to talk about using judo in “real life”, then when can you ever seriously expect to be fighting against someone who has anything that gives you any grip on?

Trying to perform the morote seionage on anyone who’s wearing a t-shirt will probably either result in the t-shirt getting ripped because of your grip or the shirt just getting pulled off the guy’s body without you getting the expected leverage. Both end up with the guy at your back and with a clear shot at a whole bunch of places. That’s sort of why I listed leg sweeps and hip throws like harai gosi as better throws. Sweeps are incredibly easy to use once you get the hang of anticipating movements and only require your foot, and hip throws/harai goshi doesn’t require you to actually have a grip on the gi or any sort of clothing. Just need to get into position where you can grab their wrist and pull them close.

[quote]magick wrote:
Really though, I don’t advise you ever trying a throw on some guy outside of a training mat. He’ll get hurt. Badly. Just go try and do a back-fall on some concrete. Do it with all the proper techniques you’ve been taught. The rolling and the head-tucked in and all that. Then come tell me whether you think throwing someone even with a half-assed speed will hurt him or not.[/quote]

Thanks, captain obvious.[/quote]

You missed the point. Because of how all throws work, you don’t need to do anything to make throws more painful. That’s what I meant by trying them on a concrete floor. While certain throws have mechanics that obviously make them more painful, all of them are effective used correctly.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
1.) Try to be on top.

2.) Your hard parts go in their soft parts.

Oddly enough these are also rules for drunken hotel sex.

Really though, I am not trying to misrepresent myself as an authority on Judo or Judo techniques. So if someone who is disaggrees with me they should be listened to. However, the above should be taken as GOSPEL with respect to drunken hotel sex.

(…)

Final note: It is about side abs. Not pecs. I thought this was settled science?

Regards,

Robert A
[/quote]

Going to Vegas on tuesday. All of the above is duly noted. Strong advice.

lmfao

Robert is legit the best poster on this entire website

^^ Indeed

[quote]Robert A wrote:

For my money there are two primary rules of “how to go to the ground in a fight with no ref and likely on pavement”.

1.) Try to be on top.

2.) Your hard parts go in their soft parts.

Oddly enough these are also rules for drunken hotel sex.

Really though, I am not trying to misrepresent myself as an authority on Judo or Judo techniques. So if someone who is disaggrees with me they should be listened to. However, the above should be taken as GOSPEL with respect to drunken hotel sex.

[/quote]

Hahaha!

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Hey bros and brollettes,

I started doing Judo in september and I’m apparently a natural cause it took me less than a week to go from white to yellow. First day I showed up we randori’d (sparred) and I threw some blue and black belts. Guess this is the sport for me!
+ego boost

Anyway, I noticed some of the throws can be modified to devastate your opponent. I understand that in practice the throws are done in such a way that your opponent lands “softly” as opposed to the REAL judo way, which lands the guy on his head, shoulder or back.

From a “street” and “competitive” perspective, this isn’t ideal.

Anyone have any references, websites, etc that show how to do the ‘real’ throws?

Thanks

edit: Some of the black belts have shown me the ‘real’ throws but I just want to do some more research on it. [/quote]

(Been doing jujutsu since '84. Know a bit about judo, but not much.) The fact that you rocked so early on is because a lot of judo any more is what Phil Porter (look him up) called “power judo” i.e., just grab 'em and slam 'em. No finesse needed.

There were, in the olden days, no throws. Everything was basically a head slam. These were the techniques for killing a fully armored samurai and are anything but user friendly. Even with 8" thick crash pads and practicing these carefully we have cracked ribs. Not toys in the least and not to be trifled. Making your uke (partner) do a full rotation was a safety innovation. Mats came a bit later, making it even safer. Now, judo keeps the throws in the GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) category, so that pretty much anything you do is going to keep uke safe. Injuries then occur at the same (or actually, slightly lower) rate as other contact sports. Judo is very safe this way.

Throwing old style means largely twisting uke into shapes and/or throwing along bad angles so he shatters on impact. This is not too hard actually, but if you want to do judo do not learn this – it will ruin your game and you can seriously injure someone in randori. For instance, a simple variation of ippon seoi nage rotates uke’s arm 180 degrees (palm up) into an armbar, then you power through that while you drop (sutemi) your own shoulder to the mat. Probably rip his arm out of the socket and there is no way for him to avoid a catastrophic head plant. Minor change, so practicing this to fluidity might mean you do it to someone before you understand it’s on them (we practice this stuff to make it automatic, remember?)

Street throws – probably stick with your judo throws. You want to be a believer, go into the parking lot and have someone throw you (yes you – understand what you are trying to do to poeple!) on pavement. Even knowing how to land it is going to suck big blocky nuts. What do you think would happen to someone who has never seen a throw before? I have an story about that, btw…

Hope this helps,

– jj

When I say throw, I mean I got a few people with Uchi Mata, Harai O goshi and seoi nage.
I wouldn’t use this stuff in randori, but I like to have knowledge of what the actual ‘throws’ were supposed to be. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a martial art, not a ‘sport’, even if it’s sportified.

Tell us your story.

Im not sure I know where to start with this.

other then saying Robert A is my hero

other then to tell you to go to a better school perhaps.

if you really want to know about real judo

read my judo

kodokan.org

as for kicking ass so early on
its possible on the internet.

think of Judo like squats- the better your form the more you can do.

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
When I say throw, I mean I got a few people with Uchi Mata, Harai O goshi and seoi nage.
I wouldn’t use this stuff in randori, but I like to have knowledge of what the actual ‘throws’ were supposed to be. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a martial art, not a ‘sport’, even if it’s sportified.

Tell us your story.[/quote]

Story is from one of my instructors. He was studying at a place that had both judo and jujutsu. One of the judo guys who was about 17 and from a really poor family was training there. This kid was doing well and his competition throw was an ippon seoi nage:

So this means he comes in does hundreds of these a week since he’s gearing up for a competition. One day after class, he is heading home holding a duffel bag with his uniform and other stuff in it when three or four guys confront him and try to rob him. One of the robbers has a knife out. The kid tells them to go drop dead and the robber tries to stab the kid. The kid hides behind his duffel bag, which gets stabbed instead. So the robber is standing there with a nice straight right arm and the kid grabs it and uncorks a competition level throw on him. Works great and the robber breaks a knee, plus a bunch of ribs and get a nasty concussion too. The other robbers run like at that point.

Total win? Think again. The cops show up and the relates how he totally whipped this mofo’s sorry ass – in other words, he did the post-victory dance you save for your friends after winning a competition. Thanks to this (sounds like he was aching to give a beat down) and the fact that the robber had a bad head injury, the kid gets brought up on felony charges and ends up going to prison on attempted manslaughter. Don’t forget, poor kid = public defender and nobody told him how to talk to the cops.

So before you get carried away with self-defense, throws and other stuff, wrap your head around the fact that most of it contra-indicates with the penal code. Martial Sports trains you to have one strategy: the frontal assault, which really can’t be explained as self-defense in any meaningful way…

– jj

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
When I say throw, I mean I got a few people with Uchi Mata, Harai O goshi and seoi nage.
I wouldn’t use this stuff in randori, but I like to have knowledge of what the actual ‘throws’ were supposed to be. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a martial art, not a ‘sport’, even if it’s sportified.

Tell us your story.[/quote]

Story is from one of my instructors. He was studying at a place that had both judo and jujutsu. One of the judo guys who was about 17 and from a really poor family was training there. This kid was doing well and his competition throw was an ippon seoi nage:

So this means he comes in does hundreds of these a week since he’s gearing up for a competition. One day after class, he is heading home holding a duffel bag with his uniform and other stuff in it when three or four guys confront him and try to rob him. One of the robbers has a knife out. The kid tells them to go drop dead and the robber tries to stab the kid. The kid hides behind his duffel bag, which gets stabbed instead. So the robber is standing there with a nice straight right arm and the kid grabs it and uncorks a competition level throw on him. Works great and the robber breaks a knee, plus a bunch of ribs and get a nasty concussion too. The other robbers run like at that point.

Total win? Think again. The cops show up and the relates how he totally whipped this mofo’s sorry ass – in other words, he did the post-victory dance you save for your friends after winning a competition. Thanks to this (sounds like he was aching to give a beat down) and the fact that the robber had a bad head injury, the kid gets brought up on felony charges and ends up going to prison on attempted manslaughter. Don’t forget, poor kid = public defender and nobody told him how to talk to the cops.

So before you get carried away with self-defense, throws and other stuff, wrap your head around the fact that most of it contra-indicates with the penal code. Martial Sports trains you to have one strategy: the frontal assault, which really can’t be explained as self-defense in any meaningful way…

– jj
[/quote]

I don’t doubt you, but I don’t understand. Where I live (Canada) I believe that you are justified in using lethal force to answer what you reasonably believe to be a threat of grievous bodily injury or death to either yourself or anyone under your protection. In other words you are justified to shoot someone who confronts you with a knife if you have grounds to believe he intends to use it on you (i.e. he has already tried to stab you with it but you do not have to wait for this, first strike is acceptable). Of course, because I live in Canada you wouldn’t be carrying, but you get the point. You need to stop when the threat stops, but assuming this guy didn’t head stomp the robber after he threw him I would think this was covered.

I realize of course that different areas have vastly different legislation around this issue and you need to know the rules of engagement whether you agree with them or not. Also, as you mention, it’s important to know how to talk to the cops in a fashion that protects your legal interests.

I know that there are some pretty bizarre laws about self defense out there and I don’t question that this stuff happens, it’s just crazy to me is all.

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I know that there are some pretty bizarre laws about self defense out there and I don’t question that this stuff happens, it’s just crazy to me is all.[/quote]

Repeat after me “I MAY beat the rap, but I WON’T beat the ride.”

Officers on scene think you are wrong, you get cuffed and stuffed.

Officers tell prosecutor that you are wrong. Charges are filed.

In the above story the young man did himself no favors with his mouth, and could not avail himself of counsel when he needed it most. The end result could easily be a plea.

Am I tracking right JJ-dude?

Regards,

Robert A