T Nation

Real Fascism Example

Because some of us around here think that the US is going fascist, I would like to share an article which describes in vivid detail just what real fascism is.

http://www.veteransforamerica.org/articleid/8394

Here is a look at Iraq today, and their struggles with tyrannical religious zealots.

The article is about haircuts, and how getting one just might earn you a beating or a bullet.

PS Yes, Islamofascists really are this fucked up.

I still think it is okay for some people to blow the whistle when they think they see something wrong.

Sure, there are all kinds of assholes out there doing bad things, but that doesn’t mean we can’t keep an eye on people who are trying to move things in the wrong direction.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I still think it is okay for some people to blow the whistle when they think they see something wrong.

Sure, there are all kinds of assholes out there doing bad things, but that doesn’t mean we can’t keep an eye on people who are trying to move things in the wrong direction.[/quote]

Agree. Part of free speech is being able to call bullshit, and that’s an important part of a liberal’s job, because the cons tend to just holler at us to get off their lawns.

My point I’m trying to make is that there are times when the word “fascist” is warranted, and times when it isn’t. The haircut thing is real, warmblooded fascism. You aren’t ever going to see shit like that here in the USA. Ever. Not while I can still draw breath.


http://clerk.house.gov/histHigh/Virtual_Tours/Artifacts/bronze.html

Fascism - derived from the name fasces (rods bundled around an axe), was an ancient Roman symbol of the authority of magistrates.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Here is a look at Iraq today, and their struggles with tyrannical religious zealots.

The article is about haircuts, and how getting one just might earn you a beating or a bullet.

PS Yes, Islamofascists really are this fucked up.[/quote]

Sounds like we need to reinvade Iraq.

A $500 billion experiment in freedom – there should already be five SuperCuts in Baghdad alone.

For $500 billion we could have done something far more feasible – like moved the Sun a little farther away from the Earth to combat global warming.

Why Are We Suddenly At War With “Islamic Fascists”? A Neologism that Signals a Change in Strategy As Elections Near
JOHN W. DEAN - Sept 2006
…the Administration needs to create a more fearsome enemy. That new enemy is Islamofascists - whoever these people may be, they sound more frightening and important than the previously-named enemy. The Administration is aware that Americans are not sufficiently afraid, and that clear thinking will be its demise…

John Mueller, a professor of political science at Ohio State University, asserts in the current issue of Foreign Affairs that “the lifetime chance of an American being killed by international terrorism is about one in 80,000 - about the same chance of being killed by a comet or a meteor.”

You want solutions? Take half the money spent on the military and blowing people up and put it into alternative energy research and we’d all be driving flying cars powered by a single “cell phone type” battery within five years.

You know why we won’t?

Because fascists governments don’t do that sort of thing – the largest portion of a fascist government’s budget is typically spent on the MILITARY at the exclusion of ALL else – and we spend more on the military than the rest of the world combined.

I just can’t hate you even though you are a kook. There’s something just… almost figured out in your brain if you can let go of this parade of neocon hating for a few seconds.

Example:

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
JOHN W. DEAN - Sept 2006
…the Administration needs to create a more fearsome enemy. That new enemy is Islamofascists - whoever these people may be, they sound more frightening and important than the previously-named enemy. The Administration is aware that Americans are not sufficiently afraid, and that clear thinking will be its demise…[/quote]

This is really close, JTF. This snippet is correct about one thing only… clear thinking WILL defeat this administration. Problem here is that the people who need to be doing the clear thinking are too busy looking at or dreaming up the negatives of Bush and pals instead of thinking up their own original shit which is better (hopefully) than what the current administration has to offer. All I am seeing from your posts since like day one is “Be Afraid of Bush!” “Bush is a Nazi!” “The Neocons are Trying to Enslave Us!” and other such chicken little bullshit. Thus, my bitchfest in the Liberal Trolling thread.

Dammit I would just love it if you could take this one step further and come up with an alternative besides fearmongering and shadowy hints at stuff that isn’t real/relevant.

So let’s say that you have a problem with increased surveillance of international telephone lines because it’s some kind of fascist invasion of our privacy. Okay let’s go crazy and run with this. Instead of posting about how this is irrefutable evidence that the sky is falling, howsabout you come up with a better idea to help us get the job done in monitoring for terrorist activity? What else do you expect security officials to do? Is there some more effective or more inobtrusive measures we could be taking here?

Or even better, can you find some way to reassure the American People that everything to prevent the sequel to 9/11 is being done, and that it isn’t necessary for us to increase the surveillance in the first place? Are they going to buy it?

Let’s see some of that clear thinking, okay? We’ve had enough of the “Bush is Hitler” crap.

This is a consequence of the invasion of Iraq.

Iraq was a secular state under Saddam. It might not have been a paradise, but you would be able to be a barber, or have a haircut without risking more than …

a bad haircut.

But then this born-again chi…
Wait, no namecalling, let’s be nice.

But then the leader of the free world came along and decide the best place to fight Islamofascism would be in a secular state. There were other candidates in the region with lots of muslim-fundamentalists, but they were either considered friendly (Saudi-Arabia) or to big (Iran) or had nukes (Pakistan).

And besides, he had a score to settle with Saddam.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
vroom wrote:
I still think it is okay for some people to blow the whistle when they think they see something wrong.

Sure, there are all kinds of assholes out there doing bad things, but that doesn’t mean we can’t keep an eye on people who are trying to move things in the wrong direction.

Agree. Part of free speech is being able to call bullshit, and that’s an important part of a liberal’s job, because the cons tend to just holler at us to get off their lawns.

My point I’m trying to make is that there are times when the word “fascist” is warranted, and times when it isn’t. The haircut thing is real, warmblooded fascism. You aren’t ever going to see shit like that here in the USA. Ever. Not while I can still draw breath.

[/quote]

Go in front of a police station and smoke a joint then…

There are fascist elements in the US society and there are individuals who are willing to carry out such policies…

That does not make the US society different or worse than other societies, but to claim that fascism does not stand a chance in the US while para-military police units come down on non-violent drug users and children are taught to snitch on their peers or even parents is just a tad too optimistic…

[quote]orion wrote:
Go in front of a police station and smoke a joint then…

There are fascist elements in the US society and there are individuals who are willing to carry out such policies…

That does not make the US society different or worse than other societies, but to claim that fascism does not stand a chance in the US while para-military police units come down on non-violent drug users and children are taught to snitch on their peers or even parents is just a tad too optimistic…[/quote]

Hmmmm… “fascist elements”, huh?

Law enforcement is a necessary evil until we all learn how to play nice with each other. There is a noticeable difference between having some Imam dictate how you cut your hair, and getting high in front of a police station, isn’t there? It’s not like I would spark up in front of a cop and he would just start beating me or even shoot me.

There’s a damn good reason that heroin and cocaine and pals are illegal, as I have to deal with fallout from that shit all the time. I would legalize pot though. It doesn’t kill you or make you steal from people, it just makes you retarded. Probably better for you than alcohol. :slight_smile:

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Because some of us around here think that the US is going fascist, I would like to share an article which describes in vivid detail just what real fascism is.

http://www.veteransforamerica.org/articleid/8394

Here is a look at Iraq today, and their struggles with tyrannical religious zealots.

The article is about haircuts, and how getting one just might earn you a beating or a bullet.

PS Yes, Islamofascists really are this fucked up.[/quote]

Ok I agree. There are a ton of zealonts in Iraq who should be put away and reprimanded.

But does allowing thousands of innocent Iraqis to die in the process
justify this cause. Even so… who is the US to make this decision for another country? And if the governemnt is so humanitarian-inclined, why not invade Sudan and rescue Darfur from the clutches of ‘facism’ instead. Thats real facism… people can’t leave refugee camps, starving and dehydrated, raped with glass and knives, children shot or taken to be soldiers, men killed on sight.

Yes you’re right that facism is a term that shouldn’t be used for the Bush administration. Thats not true. But Imperialism is definitely appropriate.

[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
Because some of us around here think that the US is going fascist, I would like to share an article which describes in vivid detail just what real fascism is.

http://www.veteransforamerica.org/articleid/8394

Here is a look at Iraq today, and their struggles with tyrannical religious zealots.

The article is about haircuts, and how getting one just might earn you a beating or a bullet.

PS Yes, Islamofascists really are this fucked up.

Ok I agree. There are a ton of zealonts in Iraq who should be put away and reprimanded.

But does allowing thousands of innocent Iraqis to die in the process
justify this cause. Even so… who is the US to make this decision for another country? And if the governemnt is so humanitarian-inclined, why not invade Sudan and rescue Darfur from the clutches of ‘facism’ instead. Thats real facism… people can’t leave refugee camps, starving and dehydrated, raped with glass and knives, children shot or taken to be soldiers, men killed on sight.

Yes you’re right that facism is a term that shouldn’t be used for the Bush administration. Thats not true. But Imperialism is definitely appropriate.[/quote]

Isn’t Darfur yet another example of Islamofascism?

Darfur is Muslim on Muslim ethnic extermination. When the UN decided to step in, the Sudan government threw a shit fit.

Currently, Bush is deciding on the Darfur Peace and Accountability Act which was passed unanimously last year in the Senate, and a few months ago in the House by 416 to 3.

We aren’t ignoring Darfur. I wouldn’t mind fixing some shit over there. Too bad they don’t have any oil to steal. :slight_smile:


[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
I just can’t hate you even though you are a kook. There’s something just… almost figured out in your brain if you can let go of this parade of neocon hating for a few seconds.

Example:

JustTheFacts wrote:
JOHN W. DEAN - Sept 2006
…the Administration needs to create a more fearsome enemy. That new enemy is Islamofascists - whoever these people may be, they sound more frightening and important than the previously-named enemy. The Administration is aware that Americans are not sufficiently afraid, and that clear thinking will be its demise…

This is really close, JTF. This snippet is correct about one thing only… clear thinking WILL defeat this administration. Problem here is that the people who need to be doing the clear thinking are too busy looking at or dreaming up the negatives of Bush and pals instead of thinking up their own original shit which is better (hopefully) than what the current administration has to offer. All I am seeing from your posts since like day one is “Be Afraid of Bush!” “Bush is a Nazi!” “The Neocons are Trying to Enslave Us!” and other such chicken little bullshit. Thus, my bitchfest in the Liberal Trolling thread.

Dammit I would just love it if you could take this one step further and come up with an alternative besides fearmongering and shadowy hints at stuff that isn’t real/relevant.

So let’s say that you have a problem with increased surveillance of international telephone lines because it’s some kind of fascist invasion of our privacy. Okay let’s go crazy and run with this. Instead of posting about how this is irrefutable evidence that the sky is falling, howsabout you come up with a better idea to help us get the job done in monitoring for terrorist activity? What else do you expect security officials to do? Is there some more effective or more inobtrusive measures we could be taking here?

Or even better, can you find some way to reassure the American People that everything to prevent the sequel to 9/11 is being done, and that it isn’t necessary for us to increase the surveillance in the first place? Are they going to buy it?

Let’s see some of that clear thinking, okay? We’ve had enough of the “Bush is Hitler” crap.[/quote]

“Shadowy hints at stuff that isn’t real/relevant”

For the last 220 some odd years we’ve been told who the real enemy will be when he comes – still you fall for the ol’ “dark guy with a beard” trick. (don’t feel too bad, even some fairly smart people did)


“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”

  • James Madison

“Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.”

  • James Madison

“Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.”
-Douglas MacArthur

“I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.”
-Douglas MacArthur

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.”

  • Dwight D. Eisenhower

“Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty.”
-George Washington

“The Department of Defense is the behemoth… With an annual budget larger than the gross domestic product of Russia, it is an empire.”
-The 9/11 Commission Report


Terrorists, no matter how many people they kill, cannot take away our freedoms – only our bloated government can do that. What would be more devastating to the US, a terrorist setting off a suitcase nuke, or us bombing Iran and the price of gas going over $5 a gallon?

I am not afraid of terrorists. Like I said before, why do you think we haven’t been attacked since 9/11? It defies logic. Our borders were left WIDE open after 9/11 and 300 tons of cocaine still comes into the US through the Mexico-Central America corridor every year – they know point A and point B and they can’t stop it. Most of the heroin comes into the US by courier on COMMERCIAL flights.
http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs11/12620/heroin.htm

So if terrorism is such a threat, how come we haven’t been attacked already?

Think man.

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.”
-Theodore Roosevelt

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=21407

lothario1132 wrote:
I just can’t hate you even though you are a kook. There’s something just… almost figured out in your brain if you can let go of this parade of neocon hating for a few seconds.

Example:

JustTheFacts wrote:
JOHN W. DEAN - Sept 2006
…the Administration needs to create a more fearsome enemy. That new enemy is Islamofascists - whoever these people may be, they sound more frightening and important than the previously-named enemy. The Administration is aware that Americans are not sufficiently afraid, and that clear thinking will be its demise…

This is really close, JTF. This snippet is correct about one thing only… clear thinking WILL defeat this administration. Problem here is that the people who need to be doing the clear thinking are too busy looking at or dreaming up the negatives of Bush and pals instead of thinking up their own original shit which is better (hopefully) than what the current administration has to offer. All I am seeing from your posts since like day one is “Be Afraid of Bush!” “Bush is a Nazi!” “The Neocons are Trying to Enslave Us!” and other such chicken little bullshit. Thus, my bitchfest in the Liberal Trolling thread.

Dammit I would just love it if you could take this one step further and come up with an alternative besides fearmongering and shadowy hints at stuff that isn’t real/relevant.

So let’s say that you have a problem with increased surveillance of international telephone lines because it’s some kind of fascist invasion of our privacy. Okay let’s go crazy and run with this. Instead of posting about how this is irrefutable evidence that the sky is falling, howsabout you come up with a better idea to help us get the job done in monitoring for terrorist activity? What else do you expect security officials to do? Is there some more effective or more inobtrusive measures we could be taking here?

Or even better, can you find some way to reassure the American People that everything to prevent the sequel to 9/11 is being done, and that it isn’t necessary for us to increase the surveillance in the first place? Are they going to buy it?

Let’s see some of that clear thinking, okay? We’ve had enough of the “Bush is Hitler” crap.

“Shadowy hints at stuff that isn’t real/relevant”

For the last 220 some odd years we’ve been told who the real enemy will be when he comes – still you fall for the ol’ “dark guy with a beard” trick. (don’t feel too bad, even some fairly smart people did)


“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”

  • James Madison

“Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.”

  • James Madison

“Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.”
-Douglas MacArthur

“I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.”
-Douglas MacArthur

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.”

  • Dwight D. Eisenhower

“Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty.”
-George Washington

“The Department of Defense is the behemoth… With an annual budget larger than the gross domestic product of Russia, it is an empire.”
-The 9/11 Commission Report


Terrorists, no matter how many people they kill, cannot take away our freedoms – only our bloated government can do that. What would be more devastating to the US, a terrorist setting off a suitcase nuke, or us bombing Iran and the price of gas going over $5 a gallon?

I am not afraid of terrorists. Like I said before, why do you think we haven’t been attacked since 9/11? It defies logic. Our borders were left WIDE open after 9/11 and 300 tons of cocaine still comes into the US through the Mexico-Central America corridor every year – they know point A and point B and they can’t stop it. Most of the heroin comes into the US by courier on COMMERCIAL flights.
http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs11/12620/heroin.htm

So if terrorism is such a threat, how come we haven’t been attacked already?

Think man.

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.”
-Theodore Roosevelt
[/quote]

It’s the illuminati! They did it!

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
So if terrorism is such a threat, how come we haven’t been attacked already?

Think man.
[/quote]

Ummm… we get attacks by muslim fundamentalists all the time. At least once a day. It’s just not over here in the USA.

They also kill other Muslims who don’t follow thde same Imam or whatever that they do.

They are the real fascists who impose their absolute will over a frightened and terrorized populace. Go get a stylish haircut in Baghdad. Go ahead.

PS More Illuminati space alien shit from you, and not one positive idea about what to do about REAL problems we face as a nation.

OKAY OKAY OKAY

Let’s pretend. Let’s pretend that you and I become the leaders of an elite investigative unit, and we invade Washington, expose all the Illuminati scumfucks who run the country with incontrovertible evidence, and save the universe from a dark fascist pyramind-with-an-eye-on-top hell. We’re heroes. The American people build statues of us and shit and all is well.

What then? We have many social problems facing us that can’t easily be fixed. A large portion of our working force is set to retire, and there aren’t enough young folks taking their places. The energy crunch is coming someday. Are we prepared for peak oil? That’s like twenty years away… maybe less. What about other domestic issues? What do we do about an increasingly vocal gay minority of our population who want equal marriage rights? Are they some bizarre fetish, or are they a part of the human condition which deserves recognition as a viable family unit in our society?

All you do is post “run for your lives” posts, and I think that some of them are pretty funny, but come on. Just once, admit that there are things going on here that AREN’T Illuminati-driven, and have some of that “clear thinking” I was alluding to earlier.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
It’s the illuminati! They did it![/quote]

No, it was a homeless guy in a cave!

Yes they are ‘Islamofacists’ and yes they’re also practicing extermination. Iraq also threw a ‘shit fit’ when the UN decided to do nuclear inspections there. So why not attack there too?

A Peace and Accountability act ain’t going to change ANYTHING. They rushed like hell to attack Iraq, yet they can’t rush like hell to attack Sudan? After all its not a proper democratic country, its oppressive, its ‘Islamofacist’, so why not attack Sudan instead?

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
orion wrote:
Go in front of a police station and smoke a joint then…

There are fascist elements in the US society and there are individuals who are willing to carry out such policies…

That does not make the US society different or worse than other societies, but to claim that fascism does not stand a chance in the US while para-military police units come down on non-violent drug users and children are taught to snitch on their peers or even parents is just a tad too optimistic…

Hmmmm… “fascist elements”, huh?

Law enforcement is a necessary evil until we all learn how to play nice with each other. There is a noticeable difference between having some Imam dictate how you cut your hair, and getting high in front of a police station, isn’t there? It’s not like I would spark up in front of a cop and he would just start beating me or even shoot me.

There’s a damn good reason that heroin and cocaine and pals are illegal, as I have to deal with fallout from that shit all the time. I would legalize pot though. It doesn’t kill you or make you steal from people, it just makes you retarded. Probably better for you than alcohol. :)[/quote]

We could discuss the pros and cons of drug prohibiton all day, it is just that to the best of my knowledge this is not even a federal issue, dissenting state laws are ignored, jail times are ridiculously high and para- military police forces enforce this.

Politically this measures are sold with fear and they keep going on even, after 80 years it is pretty much proven that it does not work.

What do you think fascism is? Of course this is not Fascism as a entire political system, but the US political system has fascist elements, there are people that are more than happy to make a career out of enforcing those rules even if it means bending laws and courts to their will.

I did not even mention Guantanamo, or the new legislation allowing the president to define what is “torture” yet.

You do not end up with fascim with a coup (no, not eben in Nazi Germany), it is one step after the other until you have an administration that actually uses all these powers in an orchestrated manner.

Now that may never happen in the US, but not only because of your “checks and balances” but also because you, as a people, are very hard to unite behind anything for a significant amount of time.

You are just not as homogenous as Germany or Japan were, nor do you all share the same faith…

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
They are the real fascists who impose their absolute will over a frightened and terrorized populace. Go get a stylish haircut in Baghdad. Go ahead.
[/quote]

Proclamation:

"Our military operations have as their object, the defeat of the enemy and the driving of him from these territories. In order to complete this task I am charged with absolute and supreme control of all regions in which British troops operate; but our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators

Your citizens have been subject to the tyranny of strangers… and your fathers and yourselves have groaned in bondage. Your sons have been carried off to wars not of your seeking, your wealth has been stripped from you by unjust men and squandered in different places.

It is the wish not only of my King and his peoples, but it is also the wish of the great Nations with whom he is in alliance, that you should prosper even as in the past when your lands were fertile…

But you, people of Baghdad… are not to understand that it is the wish of the British Government to impose upon you alien institutions. It is the hope of the British Government that the aspirations of your philosophers and writers shall be realised once again, that the people of Baghdad shall flourish, and shall enjoy their wealth and substance under institutions which are in consonance with their sacred laws and with their racial ideals…

It is the hope and desire of the British people… that the Arab race may rise once more to greatness and renown amongst the peoples of the Earth…

Therefore I am commanded to invite you, through your Nobles and Elders and Representatives, to participate in the management of your civil affairs in collaboration with the Political Representative of Great Britain… so that you may unite with your kinsmen in the North, East, South and West, in realising the aspirations of your Race."

(signed) F.S. Maude, Lieutenant-General, Commanding the British Forces in Iraq.


Within six months, Britain was fighting a military insurrection in Iraq and David Lloyd George, the prime minister, was facing calls for a military withdrawal.

“Is it not for the benefit of the people of that country that it should be governed so as to enable them to develop this land which has been withered and shrivelled up by oppression? What would happen if we withdrew?”

Lloyd George would not abandon Iraq to “anarchy and confusion”. By this stage, British officials in Baghdad were blaming the violence on “local political agitation, originated outside Iraq”, suggesting that Syria might be involved…

IRAQ, 1917
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/4896

I think soon they’ll have a real solution for “Islamofascists” though…

“…and advanced forms of biological warfare that can “target” specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool.” (pg72)
-Rebuilding America’s Defenses
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3249.htm

BTW, solution to peak oil…

Till at last the childs mind is these suggestions, and the sum of these suggestions the childs mind.

And not the childs mind only.

The adults mind too - ALL HIS LIFE LONG.

The mind that judges and desire and decides is made up of these suggestions.

But all these suggestions are our suggestions…suggestions from the state.

Aldous Huxley - Brave New World

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
BTW, solution to peak oil…


[/quote]

Yeah. I posted a link to that in Get a Life a few months ago. Bad f’n ass car. Have you also seen this?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html

and

http://www.nanosolar.com/

I’m not scared of the energy crunch. There are real and feasible alternatives which will become more and more prominent in next decade or so. It’s going to be us liberals that get the ball rolling, because by definition, conservatives are reluctant to change. They will try to hold on to oil and natural gas until the wells run dry, and gas costs ten bucks a gallon.

I can’t wait to start building nuclear power plants again. It’s been a while since we actually encouraged the use of our most potent technology for something useful for society.