Guys,
My goal is to get a 225 PJ/PP by new years. I have been using PP and PJ’s for my ME exercises, usually working up to a 1-3 RM or doing waves (3,2,1/3,2,1)(5,4,3/5,4,3)
on ME upper day.
On the DE day I do either PJ or C+PP for 10 sets of 3 (70%,75%,77%). My question is since my PP and PJ max is kinda low (205), would I be better off using a RE day in place of the DE work? If I do something like 4x6 for the main exercise and a high rep assistance exercise (3x20), sound alright?
Thanks
Will42
IMO yes on the RE. give it a go. If you start feeling beat up drop it deload a week but at this point for you, and well me I feel Im getting more out of RE 90% of the time on most all my pressing.
I am a power jerker. Up until this year my C&J was my weak lift. I could clean at least 22# more than I could jerk. Here are a few things that helped me correct this:
-Get your overhead strength up with RE strict presses. This is probably the most effective thing that I’ve done to improve my power jerk. I spent 5 or 6 years doing the whole Bulgarian “train only the OL’s & squats” thing and it never helped get my lifts up past a certain point. When I threw in some lifts to strengthen weaker muscle groups, my jerks started getting easier. Right now I train my strict overhead press on monday 5x5 working up to one heavy set of 5. On Friday I do 4x8. My top set of 8 is 10 pounds less than my top set on Monday.
-Add reps to instead of weight to your C&J. This has worked great. I start out a cycle with a given weight for a single & attempt to triple that weight by the fourth week. I then unload for 1 week and then up the weights for the new cycle.
-For 5 or 6 years I thought the bench press as a lift for BB’ers and PL’ers. I was a OL purist, actually I was an elitist, and thus missed out on many of the benefits of this lift. Now I believe differently and think that this lift has a plenty to offer a lifter seeking to increase their jerk (or push press). I can’t back this up its just my opinion. I now bench press once a week on Wednesday for one top set of 8.
Well those are the major points. I have also recently rediscoverd my love for bent rows. I do them in all 3 of my workouts. Mon & Fri are lighter days. I do a couple sets of 12 with a snatch grip and pull the bar to the bottom of my pecs. On Wed I go heavier with 3-4 sets of 8. I do these as described in topic 7 here http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/training-forum/best-meso-best-johnsmith-12.html except that I like an underhand grip. During my time as an elitist I devoloped this idea that lower back strength was the greatest thing but the upper back didn’t deserve any direct attention. I now know that the strength of the upper back can contribute to my OL as well.
I know that not all of this will apply to you, but hopefully some part of it will help you hit your goals.
[quote]MachineAZ wrote:
Repetition work on strict press will do little for your push jerk.
Repetition work on push jerk will increase your strict press.
Do all of DE, ME, and RE with push jerks. Work on your technique. Use push press too but strict press only 10% of the time maybe.[/quote]
Seconded. I’d also add to do some lighter db inline press and light bb behind the neck press to make sure you don’t incur pattern overload as well.
Another thing that helped me a lot is heavy overhead supports immediately prior to ME jerks/presses. It’ll allow you to use a little more weight in your workouts and progress faster.
[quote]MachineAZ wrote:
Repetition work on strict press will do little for your push jerk.[/quote]
I disagree. After you drive the bar, the only thing left is to get under the bar. The harder and faster you can push yourself under the bar the more you will be able to jerk. The muscles used in the push under can be strengthened (using 1-5 reps) with an overhead strict press. In my experience this results in higher numbers in the jerk.
[/quote]Do all of DE, ME, and RE with push jerks. Work on your technique. Use push press too but strict press only 10% of the time maybe.[/quote]
I simply do not understand what you are saying here. I believe the idea of DE work was mentioned in the first post and I did not understand it then either. I understand that a ME workout for power jerks would mean heavy singles. I also understand that a RE workout would involve doing 2-6 reps. But in both cases the reps are still dynamic. Is there a way to do a jerk & it not be dynamic. By its very nature it is dynamic. So in my mind you can only do ME (by attempting heavy singles) or RE.
The only other option that I see is to include a form of overhead lifting that is less dynamic such as a strict press, which you have already covered. Could you please expound?
[quote]Olympiclfter wrote:
MachineAZ wrote:
Repetition work on strict press will do little for your push jerk.
I disagree. After you drive the bar, the only thing left is to get under the bar. The harder and faster you can push yourself under the bar the more you will be able to jerk. The muscles used in the push under can be strengthened (using 1-5 reps) with an overhead strict press. In my experience this results in higher numbers in the jerk.
Do all of DE, ME, and RE with push jerks. Work on your technique. Use push press too but strict press only 10% of the time maybe.
I simply do not understand what you are saying here. I believe the idea of DE work was mentioned in the first post and I did not understand it then either. I understand that a ME workout for power jerks would mean heavy singles. I also understand that a RE workout would involve doing 2-6 reps. But in both cases the reps are still dynamic. Is there a way to do a jerk & it not be dynamic. By its very nature it is dynamic. So in my mind you can only do ME (by attempting heavy singles) or RE.
The only other option that I see is to include a form of overhead lifting that is less dynamic such as a strict press, which you have already covered. Could you please expound?
[/quote]
OL,
By DE I mean using light weight (70-80% of 1RM) for 8-10 sets of 3 reps as fast as form will allow.
The reason that the %'s are higher when compared to a traditional DE day is because of the dynamic nature of the OL and their variants, like you stated.
I think that RE day would be a 5x5, 4x6 3x8, 5x8 scheme.
[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
MachineAZ wrote:
Repetition work on strict press will do little for your push jerk.
Repetition work on push jerk will increase your strict press.
Do all of DE, ME, and RE with push jerks. Work on your technique. Use push press too but strict press only 10% of the time maybe.
Seconded. I’d also add to do some lighter db inline press and light bb behind the neck press to make sure you don’t incur pattern overload as well.
Another thing that helped me a lot is heavy overhead supports immediately prior to ME jerks/presses. It’ll allow you to use a little more weight in your workouts and progress faster.
-Dan[/quote]
Dan,
On the OH supports: How long do you hold the weight? 10s? Is this basically a supra-maxamial hold? Like a squat walk out?
First of all, the PP and PJ (Push Press and Power Jerk I’m assuming) are different exercises. Push Press is just a shoulder press with leg drive. A power jerk is a shoulder press with a leg drive, but also a second knee bend, where you drop under the bar and catch it in a lower position. You should be able to push jerk a noticable ammount more than you can push press.
So therefore, I think you should define which one is more important to you, and use that as your staple lift. Use both in training, but which one do you want more? I personally prefer jerks over a press, just because I can handle more weight, but that’s just me.
I actually really like what James gave you. At first glance I thought it was really high in volume, but I realized that’s just one day, and it included all your specific warm up sets. He’s a good man that guy is.
ME - Max Effort - Usually a single, sometimes a triple, and in certain cases up to a 5 rep max
DE - Dynamic Effort - Used to increase rate of force production, ie. speed. For conventional lifts, anywhere from 50% - 60% of ones max, is prescribed for 8-12 sets of 2 - 3 reps depending on exercise, all concentrics performed as fast as possible.
RE - Repetitive Effort - Rep it out. Higher reps, with medium intensity. Generally used as assesory movements to increase hypertrophy. Also called SE (Submaximal Effort) Many different rep and intensity schemes, but generally similar to old body building type ranges.
[quote]suuuperdave wrote:
First of all, the PP and PJ (Push Press and Power Jerk I’m assuming) are different exercises. Push Press is just a shoulder press with leg drive. A power jerk is a shoulder press with a leg drive, but also a second knee bend, where you drop under the bar and catch it in a lower position. You should be able to push jerk a noticable ammount more than you can push press.
So therefore, I think you should define which one is more important to you, and use that as your staple lift. Use both in training, but which one do you want more? I personally prefer jerks over a press, just because I can handle more weight, but that’s just me.[/quote]
I totally agree. Once I switched to jerking instead of the push press it felt a lot easier. Some heavy overhead lockouts would be helpful too, to make sure that your triceps are strong enough to take over once the leg drive runs out.
i can jerk a little over 315 with no ill effects, and i cant military press 185. if i do an overhead press, it pinches a nerve in my shoulder and i have to take a few days off. now, what does that tell you?
it tells me that oh press strength is not a good indicator of jerk strength, or perhaps even a good way to increase jerk strength. my delts actually do very little work in my jerk. if you get a good leg drive , get a good split/drop, and can hold the weight with the tri’s, you should be money. and, if oh pressing doesnt hurt you hell go for it, it cant hurt.
Another thing to think about, when trying to increase your jerk, is your ability to transfer the weight from your lower half through the bar. If I go away from jerks for a while, my weak link is being able to stay upright. I drop into the dip, and instead of being able to drive straight up through the roof, I bend forward a little, losing a ton of focre, and causing me to go forward and get the weight for the catch, instead of letting it come to me.
So work everything, from low back and trunk stabalization, to upper back and trap work to keep the upper back from rounding and caving forward. Once you can keep your torso like a rock, your jerk will instantly go up.
I am no expert in this regard (best rack split jerk of 265 at a bodyweight of ~200), but it seems like adding overhead pressing will help you more if your pressing is weak and your jerk is strong than it will if it’s vice versa. I had a really weak press, and was getting a lot of shoulder pain from just doing the lifts; adding overhead pressing to get my basic shoulder strength up made all that pain go away.
Others may have different experience, but Doing DE jerks sounds a bit wierd to me, too. Unless you’re adding bands to the movement (which would be even wierder but has been done), aren’t you just training light push-jerks?